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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the Bible finished and complete??

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 Re:

Quote:
There are over 100+ synoptic gospels varying from ones that are obviously false to ones that date back near the time of Christ. God's testimony of the scriptures that have been persevered over these last 2000 years is reliable and if you have questions about it I would think you should read a book about the forming of the bible and how it came to be.



I would like to add also that one should investigate why the Apocrypha is not included. It will help understand why the Cannon is complete, and why other books and gospels were excluded.

Krispy

 2005/4/18 16:01









 Re:

Greg, you are right, I don't know enough about how the bible came to be completed. My question is if "a series of Christian gospels which have been lost for up to 2,000 years" is found to be authentic and not contradictory to, but are rather supportive of, the Gospels in the Bible, what do you do with them? Are they on par with the Bible, a kind of Extrabiblical word of God? Just curious.

Bubbaguy

 2005/4/18 16:13









 Re:

Quote:
Greg, you are right, I don't know enough about how the bible came to be completed. My question is if "a series of Christian gospels which have been lost for up to 2,000 years" is found to be authentic and not contradictory to, but are rather supportive of, the Gospels in the Bible, what do you do with them? Are they on par with the Bible, a kind of Extrabiblical word of God? Just curious.



I'm not Greg, but my answer is they would not be considered "inspired" because then God's promise to preserve His Word unto [b]every generation[/b] would not have been fulfilled.

Now, they my confirm whats already been written, but they would not be "inspired", or called "scirpture".

THis is all hypothetical at this point anyway.

Krispy

 2005/4/18 16:19
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

A good book on the subject? Try this one; Are the New Testament Documents Reliable?. F F Bruce was Rylands Professor of Theology at Manchester University. This is a good introduction to the topic.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/4/18 18:21Profile









 Re: Complete you say........pity!

Krispy Wrote:

Quote:
No, the Word of God is complete and finished.



I don't think it is complete, but it is enough. Behold these 2 examples in the God's word.

"Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the [b]book of Jasher[/b]" 2Sam1:18 and Josh10:13

14 "[b]And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied[/b]4 of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This prophecy of Enoch is not found in the KJV or any of the other translation not even the Douey-Rhiems. It is found in only one book, the Mystical Book of Enoch, that most people reject as being uninspired, yet Jude uses it in his Epistle. I have read it, if you like Ezekiel, you'll like Enoch.

Karl

 2005/4/18 22:51









 Re: Revelation..........to be continued

Bubbaguy wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe in the continuing revelation of God's will?



I do indeed. This is a story that is unfolding since the garden. God had/has a plan and it is being revealed day by day.

When God speaks today to any one of us, that word that He speaks is just as much apart of the written word, if anyone would care to write them down. I like to think outside the box, where God is.

Karl

 2005/4/18 23:00
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think it is complete, but it is enough.



If it is not complete it is incomplete. If it is incomplete where do we get the 'missing' bit?2Ti 3:15-17 ASV And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (17) That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.As regards our salvation the scriptures are 'able to make us wise to the salvation which is obtainable by faith in Christ'. There is no inadequacy here; they are complete.

As regards our service of God they are able to make us 'completely equipped for [u]every good work[/u]'.

In relation to the purpose for which they were 'God-breathed' they are purpose built to satisfy all our needs in salvation and service. If so, nothing could be added that will make them more complete for the purpose for which God has given them. If you mean they don't give every detail that the curious would like to hear, that is true; but then they were not designed with that in mind. It would be like saying 'this precision scalpel is inadequate because I can't chop trees with it.' The scriptures are complete. They don't tell me how to cook my meals or maintain the car (automobile), but that was not their purpose

Complete, in this sense, has to do with design and purpose. The scriptures are complete. Jude did not 'use' it. He referred to an incident in the life of Enoch which also appears in the book of Enoch. His reference only shows that the book of Enoch got one single thing right. You might just as well say his avoidance of the rest of the book shows that it is unreliable.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/4/19 3:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
yet Jude uses it in his Epistle



Not sure I agree with your logic... emphasis on "not sure". I've heard many theories about Enoch's book. Paul and Jesus both referred to Roman Law, yet we dont consider that to be inspired.

It still comes back to my belief that God has kept His promise to preserve His Word unto [b]every[/b] generation.

The article Bubbaguy linked us to says this:

[i]"The Oxford documents form part of the great papyrus hoard salvaged from an ancient [b]rubbish dump[/b] in the Graeco-Egyptian town of Oxyrhynchus more than a century ago."[/i]

Does anyone believe God would preserve His Word in a rubbish dump?? I dont.

As philologos said: If it isnt complete, then it is incomplete.

Krispy

 2005/4/19 10:25
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 The wonder of it all

Two threads on the same topic, that I dare say couldn't be more important. Pardon the interruption, it does seem to fit here better, (what follows) but this is a must read:

[url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/chicago.stm.txt]THE CHICAGO STATEMENT ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY[/url]

That was taken from this thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5289&forum=36]Biblical Inerrancy- Your thoughts[/url] and my gratitude to Ron, what an incredible an edifying statement.
Out of that came the following, sorry in advance for the length...just a compelling that had me gripped this morning, now going on almost four hours....

A couple of excerpts from that statement:

[i]We affirm that the whole of Scripture and all its parts, down to the very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration.

We deny that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts, or of some parts but not the whole.


When God's final and climactic message, His word to the world concerning Jesus Christ, had been spoken and elucidated by those in the apostolic circle, the sequence of revealed messages ceased. Henceforth the Church was to live and know God by what He had already said, and said for all time.[/i]

And this, our problem and struggle:

[i]This means that at bottom independent reason now has authority, as opposed to Scriptural teaching....[/i]

My own particular line of thinking is always in a state of flux. Hardly without opinion :), but that just that, it is mere opinion at the end. If it is proven to be true it neither elevates or changes anything, but only parallels what has already been spoken and willingly and gladly submit it to a higher authority, minute by minute, day by day.

If I find that is untrue it must be discarded and that just as gladly even if that means it is injurious to my poor little psyche for a time because even that is suspect to mere emotions and fluctuations of whatever circumstances are bearing down at any given moment. A bit of rest and a lot of prayer, ceasing the brain's activity or in other words, 'be still and know' or in even more blunt words; "shut up already".

Am alternately so besides myself here, a sense of spiritual excitement, that I keep bouncing from this keyboard to the floor in adoration and wonder of how profound it is that the God of the universe can and does work through all of us... Searching and praying for just the right words to convey here.

Mark, I believe that there is much within yourself that is seeking for the truth and I know many of us have given you quite a hard time especially over this issue of innerancy of scripture. I will speak for myself here and hope and believe for the most part despite the often stinging criticism that others likewise are after one and the same thing; That it is out of love and concern we say the things we say and the statement that Ron posted is of such a grand importance... This is so far reaching beyond the topical, it, in it's totality can be referred to in so many ways that I am sure it will become something I will defer to time and time again, have fixed it to the desktop as the flood of thought comes pouring in.

For instance, 'prophecy' as it is often misconstrued has this element buttressed up against it;

"[i]When God's final and climactic message, His word to the world concerning Jesus Christ, had been spoken and elucidated by those in the apostolic circle, the sequence of revealed messages ceased. Henceforth the Church was to live and know God by what He had already said, and said for all time.[/i]"

And this must be otherwise there is no end to what mere men can conjure up in his mind and many have done so and led others off into all kinds of error, speculation, bondage, legalism, fantasy, ideology. It becomes rather than a submission to Someone who's thought's and ways are higher than our own a religion of rationalization.

I am but a poor mans Theologian and if that is to mean ... probably a good time to define that;

[b]Theology
THEOL'OGY, n.[/b] [Gr. God, and discourse.] Divinity; the science of God and divine things; or the science which teaches the existence, character and attributes of God, his laws and government, the doctrines we are to believe,and the duties we are to practice. Theology consists of two branches, natural and revealed. Natural theology is the knowledge we have of God from his works, by the light of nature and reason. Revealed theology is that which is to be learned only from revelation.

Moral theology, teaches us the divine laws relating to our manners and actions, that is, our moral duties.theology, teaches or explains the doctrines of religion, as objects of faith.

Scholastic theology, is that which proceeds by reasoning, or which derives the knowledge of several divine things from certain established principles of faith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Carrying on the thought, if that is to mean anything at all it is a great effort and the true wonder of it all is...what compels me? Without a doubt there is that sense of tension that Paul mentioned;

Phi 1:21 For to me, to go on living is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phi 1:22 Now if I go on living in this body, that will produce more results, yet I do not know which I would prefer.
Phi 1:23 Indeed, I cannot decide between the two. I have the desire to leave this life and be with Christ, for that is far better.

and if I am lucky just maybe the remainder may be true somehow,

Phi 1:24 But for your sake it is better that I remain in this body.
Phi 1:25 Since I am convinced of this, I know that I will continue to live and be with all of you for the sake of your progress and joy in the faith.
Phi 1:26 Then your boasting in Christ Jesus will increase along with mine through my coming again to you.
Phi 1:27 The only thing that matters is that you continue to live as good citizens in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come to see you or whether I stay away, I may hear all about you-that you are standing firm in one spirit, struggling with one mind for the faith of the gospel,
Phi 1:28 and that you are not intimidated by your opponents in any way. This is evidence that they will be destroyed and that you will be saved-and all because of God.
Phi 1:29 For you have been given the privilege for Christ's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.

In all honesty most days that selfishness or likely a combination of that and a grieving over this sin sick planet there is a gasp and prayer to just be removed from it all, a blessed fork in the whole thing. Of what great importance is my two cents worth when others have done such a far better job of explanation of the ultimate end of all things?

This is just a guttural spewing forth here, because and yes todays word (of late) is tension, there is still that honest sense of not arriving before the time. Part of this knuckleheads disposition is hard work, hate unfinished business and to arrive with a greeting of something other than "well done good and faithful servant" would be devastating, "not half bad" would be an eternal failure... I know, I am leaning off the rails here.

We all well know the truth of the 'studied' in areas of theology, that as an academic pursuit, an intellectual 'superiority', a 'lording it over' of the mere lay people which would be the majority, there is plenty and can be as spiritually dead and puffed up that it is a wonder how it can be so other than the deadliest of sins, pride. The opposite extreme would be those so carried away with 'spirituality' to be a danger to not only themselves but everyone else in their wake and cannot it all be attributed to this ultimate issue, that there is not a measuring rod by which we subject everything to?

Find it a bit odd that the great ultimate teaching, more so of life itself is in truth and that is in one great and perfect summarization:

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Both the Word, God's Word and the fulfillment of all truth is in a person. One and the same.

Jesus.

The end of all argument. The oddity being that as the 'canon' of scripture as we know it was being 'put together' that at it's core truth requires honesty and that if we are to hold to these truths the only way to continue that is to measure what has been written and said by comparing all these things as a whole, it either 'fits' or it doesn't. To think that this was done with some other motive other than to be truthful is absurd, that things were left out or hidden on purpose to meet some other political or other agenda...

If just by starting and ending with the revelation of Jesus Christ, everything is measured by what He said, what He did, who He was and who He proclaimed to be, the historical fact that He walked on this earth proclaiming the most incredible things a human mind can comprehend it is as C.S. Lewis stated, He is either the Son of God or a lunatic and all this is the greatest and cruelest hoax on mankind that has ever been perpetrated.

So as to these new 'findings' whatever they turn out to be, it shouldn't be a difficult task but to measure them against what has already been stated.

I am a bit long in the tooth here and this is being addressed to everyone and no one in particular, even with the mention of our friendly foe in this regard. To you I wholeheartedly pray that a consideration to these things may go even further in our attempts to why we believe in the innerancy of scripture as the final rule and authority, from the many things I have learned and read this particular 'statement' is so succinct and likely is a grand summarization of many a believer who frequents here.

If the error of so much that has become of what modern day Christianity espouses cannot be addressed within this ultimate truth I don't know what can. It is not denominational thinking, new revelations, compromise, traditions, 'new moves' nor is it a 'molding' into a prescribed method of "how to's" or "what we think"...

Need to cut this off as I find the excitement of overdoing it rising up here. But want to leave all this with something that has brewing lately and mentioned often, bare with me just a few minutes longer...

I personally have been just practically floored and cannot help but express what I have been learning from Oswald Chambers and it likely goes without saying that much that I have been quoting from of late is from his thoughts. Feel compelled a bit to clarify that a bit. It is not the man but the spirit of the man and what he taught. The truths he brings forth grab the inward core of what I do find still hard to express and so I defer to him as I would any other mere man that can help further this growth into the likeness of Jesus. It matters not to me if one is 'famous' or of no so called reputation at all in the eyes of the world or even in the eyes of the brethren. By that I do mean that this is not an exaltation of 'teachers' but of 'teaching', we know Who our Teacher is and the one and same Holy Spirit has worked in and through many a mere man to express His truth. Just a point of clarification. The same could be said of the vast riches contained within this site from so many of these predominately dead men that still speak. Praise God there are riches untold here just waiting to be discovered and explored. Go buy "The Complete Works of Oswald Chambers", it may be just my opinion but this is something that this modern day Christianity needs to hear.

Long preface to the point. What is bearing down hard is in what seems to be lost. A high view of God. An elevation of creature thought and want of an explanation for everything. No mystery or wonder or if anything a belittling of it. No sense of awe and a humbling of ourselves in true fear, not terror, but that we are but creatures and He is God!

Being that he is adept at it will give him yet more ink on this line:

[b]Intelligent Witnessing[/b]

[i]and will look forth to see what He will speak with me . . . (rv)[/i]

I do not think we have sufficiently the wondering spirit that the Holy Ghost gives. It is the child-spirit. A child is always wide-awake with wonder at the things it sees, and some of us as we get older are apt to forget that a child’s wonder is nearer the truth than our older knowledge. When through Jesus Christ we are rightly related to God, we learn to watch and wait, and wait wonderingly. “I wonder how God will answer this prayer.” “I wonder how God will answer the prayer the Holy Ghost is praying in me.” “I wonder what glory God will bring to Himself out of the strange perplexities I am in.” “I wonder what new turn His providence will take in manifesting Himself in my ways.’

The child-wondering Mind of the Holy Ghost, if I may say so reverently, was exhibited in the Lord Jesus Christ, everlasting wonder and expectancy at His Father’s working. “For I have not spoken of Myself“; and, “the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.” Our Lord said that when the Holy Ghost is come, “He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.” The Lord Jesus spoke and worked from the great big Child-heart of God. God Almighty became Incarnate as a little Child, and Jesus Christ’s message is, You must “become as little children.”†† God always keeps the minds of His children open with wonder, with open-eyed expectancy for Him to come in where He likes. I wonder how many of us have been getting our ideas and convictions and notions twisted. Thank God for the confusion if it is going to drive us straight to the watch-tower with God where our doctrines and creeds are going to be God’s, not doctrines and creeds out of God’s Book twisted to suit our preconceived ideas, but the doctrines of God woven into the flesh and blood tissues of our lives by the indwelling Holy Ghost—watching, waiting, wondering and witnessing.

Take all the Old Testament prophets, God never spoke with them without a corresponding wonder on their part. Over and over again the prophets were staggered with wonder at the strange things God did, and if they leaned to their own intelligence without sufficiently relying on the tremendous power of God, there was instant confusion. We have to “receive, recognise and rely on the Holy Ghost,” and never get beyond that stage. God grant we may have the wonder of the child-heart which the Holy Ghost gives, and that He may keep our minds young and vigorous and un-stagnant, never asleep, but always awake with child-eyed wonder at the next wonderful thing God will do. “The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice”!

God grant we may get to the place where the only thing we take seriously is the place God has put us in, watching, waiting stedfastly for God’s goings. Never take anything that is said by any man or woman, or in any book, without waiting and watching before God. “Try the spirits,” test them, see if they be of God. I want you to beware of a mistake I have made over and over again in days gone by, of trying to interpret God’s plan for other lives along the way He has led me. Never! Keep open-eyed in wonder. My brother, my sister, can God do what He likes in your life? Can He help Himself liberally to you? Can He take you up and put you down? Can He introduce His schemes through you, and never tell you the reason why? Can He make you a spectacle to men and angels, as He did Job, without giving you any explanation? Can He make you a wonder to yourself and to others, while He gives you the implicit child-like understanding that somehow or other things are working out all right?

Chambers, O. 1996, c1958. If ye shall ask.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/19 10:48Profile









 Re: The wonder of it all


Mike,

I'm with you on this as long as we speak of spiritual truths and stay away from geology and biology. I don't think the Bible was intended to speak to these subjects. Or, in other words, the truths of the Bible cannot contradict empirically verifiable sciences.

Bubbaguy

 2005/4/19 11:31





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