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rainydaygirl
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Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Chrisitanity new look on gays

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/06/03/christianity-catholic-church-gay-homosexuals-column/9926489/

i have my own thoughts on this but would really like to hear what others have to say?

rdg

 2014/6/4 13:53Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1648
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re: Chrisitanity new look on gays

Vines is not evangelical, and that is now more of a buzzword to create a demographic to be manipulated than it is anything substantive.

The Bible never puts the Earth as an object around which the sun revolves, so the point made that accepting Earth's solar orbit as a fact not harming Scriptural authority is senselessly made.

The article simply repeats the mantra of orientation as fact. Like global warming, the idea is to say it often enough that people accept it as fact. And, even if it were, people are oriented to every sin under the sun. So, homosexuality is not special, not equal to skin color or gender (which, if you want to change those too, now, you can if you can afford it).


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Tim

 2014/6/4 15:16Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

1) sex, (homosexual or heterosexual) outside of marriage is fornication
2) per the Bible, and more specifically, Jesus, marriage is between a male and a female.
3) therefore, there is no legitimate expression for homosexual sex.

Is this a hard thing? Indeed. Celibacy can be a hard thing. The question is whether being obedient to The Lord is worth it. Celibacy for a homosexual must be a sacrifice and an act of worship.

Some may say that is not fair, i.e. Homosexuals can't get married but heterosexuals can. But there are many areas where there are other areas where one group may do something and another may not and it has nothing to do with fairness, the kosher food laws for example.


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Todd

 2014/6/4 15:30Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 804


 Re: Chrisitanity new look on gays

That article is deeply disturbing. It is promoting eisegesis (reading into the scriptures) instead of exegesis (letting the scriptures speak to us).

Just look at some of what they are saying:

Quote:
"Male-male sex in the ancient world was episodic. It was mainly young boys with older men or male slaves and masters. It was not mutual. These were not relationships, they were not marriage and they were not meant to turn into marriage."



Maybe Romans isn't in his bible, because chapter 1 clearly shows that the act alone--not the periodicity of the act--is shameful.

or how about this:

Quote:
"This is not a matter of molding biblical teaching to satisfy a personal belief. Both Vines and Brownson hold a "high view" of Scripture, meaning it is the final authority on all matters of faith and life. They oppose unbiblical divorce and premarital sex, for example. But Brownson says, "The issue of sexual orientation represents new data that the church needs to ask itself, 'Should this change the way we look at this?'"

The church has done this before on issues ranging from slavery to the solar system.

Vines writes, "Christians did not change their minds about (the sun revolving around the Earth) because they lost respect for … the authority of Scripture. They changed their minds because they were confronted with evidence their predecessors had never considered.""



So this isn't a moral issue? Because the bible makes it clear that the act of homosexuality is, indeed, a moral issue. Again, see Romans.


...they will no longer endure sound doctrine...

 2014/6/4 15:49Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 804


 Re:

TMK,

I agree with some of what you said. However, same-sex attraction in and of itself is sinful. It isn't just the outward manifestation. God is not just interested in our outward actions, but the core of our motivations.

It is dangerous to separate the two. All immoral actions are a result of a corruption of the heart, no just merely a disobedience to some rules.



If I hate my brother, but just don't stab him to death when I want to, I am not good or fixed. I am still guilty before God.



I used to dip snuff all the time. By the grace of God, I haven't done it in a long time; however, the battle is not won until my heart is changed. To be honest, there are days where I really want to do that; but I try not to say to myself, "as long as I don't do it, I am good." Because if temptation comes and I begin to desire it, then I know I need to be submitting myself to the Lord right then. Not because I have committed the outward act, but because I could so easily fall back into a pattern of doing that, again. I not only need Jesus to change my outward actions, but to correct the defective heart so that when my flesh desires it, I can effectively put it down.

If we teach something different, then we'll end up with a bunch of legalists who honor the Lord with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

 2014/6/4 16:16Profile
flameoffire
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Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

We need to be careful here.

Temptation is not sin. Being tempted to lust is not sin, lusting is. It is possible to be tempted to indulge in sexual fantasy and to say "no" and set your mind on Christ.

In doesn't matter what perversion Satan is tempting you with, temptation is not sin. It is true that the fact that so many are tempted with homosexuality is evidence of gross immorality and sin in our culture:

Ephesians 5:12
For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.

however, it is not sinful to be "attracted" or to endure temptation to lust after the same sex. When people use the term "same-sex attraction," I don't think they mean those who actively lust after the same sex, but those who are tempted to do so.

This is important because Satan constantly accuses the brothers, telling them that they have already sinned and might as well go one step further. Telling people that their battle against temptation is still sin runs the risk of condemning believers who are resisting the devil in a time of trial, but have not yet had the devil flee from them.


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Jonathan

 2014/6/4 18:48Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

I don't disagree with you in principle- at all.

The problem is that I really believe (if you believe gay persons who seem to be honest) that from a very young age they had a sense that they were different and had a different sort of attraction. My wife's brother, who was a homosexual, says he knew when he was 5 or 6.

I really do believe that there may be some biological basis for this. Sure there are definitely environmental factors. But the science is pretty good that there may be some genetic component.

None of this makes a difference because there still is no excuse to ACT OUT on impulse. I think I do disagree with you about the FEELING of being a homosexual. To me, that is a temptation. If the temptation is not acted on, it is not sin.

An analogous situation is alcoholism. There is a genetic component that makes one predisposed or unable to process alcohol. This does not give them a pass to drink. And the desire to drink, like your desire to dip, is not a sin. It just isn't. It isn't a sin until your take the drink or put a dip between yer cheek n gum.

I think we are on shaky ground to say that someone who is struggling with homosexual feelings BUT ISN'T acting on those feelings is still sinning. I don't think so.

Can God deliver them from these feelings? Absolutely yes I believe. But he may choose not to for his own purpose, just like he did not remove Paul's thorn in the flesh.


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Todd

 2014/6/4 18:49Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 804


 Re:

I was speaking more about lust. Thank you for the clarification.

 2014/6/4 20:02Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree havoc- if temptation crosses over into lust (i.e. if we are dreaming about it- wishing it- imagining it, consumed by it, going out of our way to think about it)-- absolutely we have sinned.


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Todd

 2014/6/5 6:28Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

TMK wrote:
"I really do believe that there may be some biological basis for this. Sure there are definitely environmental factors. But the science is pretty good that there may be some genetic component."

The problem with this is it is not biblical. If you accept that homosexuality or being sexually actracted to the same sex is genetic and not a sin in itself, you accuse God of making people gay! The bible condemns not just the act but the desire. God condemns the effiminate as well as the practising homosexual. This is true of all sin. The lie of the world is "we cannot help it, I was born this way. It's in my genes". So are you genetically prone to immorality, drunkeness, stealing, lying, etc, etc??

You could argue yes, because we inherit Adam's genes. But God still holds us accountable for our own sin. Blaming Adam's genes won't wash! Didn't Jesus say it is not just the act, but the thought and desire? If I have hatred in my heart it us the same as murder. If I have lust in my heart it is the same as fornication or adultery. Men can love men in genuine love as they can women, but homosexuality is not about loving, it is about having a physical attraction (lust) for a man, which is condemned. There is no provision for this, like there is for hetrosexual attraction (marriage), because it is a perversion of God's creation.

Edit: Addition......If someone no longer has any desire of thoughts about a physical attraction with the same sex, he is no longer a homosexual. What makes one gay is that they desire this. The gay community hate it when someone says they have been 'cured' or are no longer gay, because it destroys their whole 'gene' argument and that you are born gay and will always be gay. God's word says no! You can repent and turn from sin and be set free from the sin of homosexuality.


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Dave

 2014/6/5 10:23Profile





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