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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I felt I should clarify the following in case of a misunderstanding:

Quote:
I do not believe the same type of miracle and healing ministries as we see in the first century church are available today, insofar as the frequency and level of power. I believe they were intended to be as frequent and powerful in the early church for a divine purpose, namely to prove who Jesus is and establish His Church. But I do believe God does occasionally perform mighty miracles today sovereignly as His sees fit.



I did not mean to say that God only heals on rare occasions. I believe He heals physical sicknesses daily through the prayers of His saints as He wills. But I believe there is a significant difference overall between healing in the first century and healing afterward. Ever since the first century there has never been such a healing ministry as back then, that is the clear and plain testimony of history. We only hear of such kinds of powerful healings on rare occasions here and there. Pentecostal believers say it is because of a lack of faith or because of sin or what not. I don't believe that argument is really that valid with all due respect. I believe that that view has the potential to cause unnecessary guilt and discouragement which God would not want us to go through. It's like laying a heavy burden on believers which God doesn't want for us to be under.

Edit: But again, I'm all for praying in faith for the sick, believing God is more than able to heal any and every kind of sickness and disease in Jesus' mighty name.


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Oracio

 2014/5/30 21:51Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

I do not agree with this article. The standard and blessings referred here are old covenant. The standard that 'you may have unbelief in your heart but do not speak it out' is Old covenant standard where the laws were external. In New covenant the standard is internal, in sermon on the mount Jesus warned us about internal sins like anger in heart, adultery in eyes not even in action etc. our new covenant standard should be not even entertain any thought of unbelief.

The blessings of New Covenant are all spiritual and not physical, like becoming rich, capture nations, abundance of food etc. I am happy that brother like Paul here is quick to spot such prosperity teaching that are entering SI.


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Sreeram

 2014/5/30 22:13Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

hi paul how on earth do i get healing in the atonment

because of the context and of the verses that we are talking about as many have believed like andrew murry and ab simpson ,i sopose

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth


mathew intreprets veses 4 and used the words infirmitrys and sickness instead of born aour griefs and carried our sorrors ,,,i allready said that brother,,so i take matwes interpratation of isa rather then inject my own


verse four is showing along with the following verses that this the atonment ,, he carried sickness and imfirmity and god smited the the lanmb as anatonment he excepted his own offeering

brother i honestly cant see how any one could read mathew and isa ,and think otherwise ,,,the smiting of god and the bareing sickness is in the verry same verse ,,,,as the lamb of god he bore all our sin and sickness in his body on the cross which is the alter and was slayed and smittin of god ,, god excepted this as the atonment ,,,,,this is so verry clear


sree with all respect franklin as been posting this rubbish for a long time now and this is the first time to my knowlage that a moderetor is jumping on it

blessings



oh oraco ,,,,brother iv herd of your possion becasue i used to take that possion ,till i found out that i could not find any teaching in the bible to suport the idea that healing and miricals wont happen as much any more liike they did in the days of the twelve apostals ,,,its not taught one has to pull verses out of the bible and squese the teaching out of verses that dont literaly teach it as a bibilcal doctrine ,,,i cant do that ill stick to the apostals doctrine writern and taught in scripture ,,rathher relie on experence infrences


now brother if im missing the clear teaching that says literaly nthat healings and miricals and prophecy is not to be expected to be at the same level ,,can you show me exactly whare that is taught


cesasinist do that sort of thing with a few verese and creat there own doctrine and nulafie the clear bible teaching on miriculas gifts

i want to do and know what the bible doctrtines are ,,not some infrences derived from interpratation of selcted veres ,,,you know what i mean brother

 2014/5/31 2:19Profile
dfella
Member



Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

Brothagary,

Brother, praise the Lord for your wisdom on these things. Isaiah 53:4 does indeed speak of physical healing not spiritual.

Isa 53:4 SurelyH403 heH1931 hath borneH5375 our griefs,H2483 and carriedH5445 our sorrows:H4341 yet weH587 did esteemH2803 him stricken,H5060 smittenH5221 of God,H430 and afflicted.H6031

The Hebrew word for Griefs H2483 means malady, anxiety, calamity, disease, grief, sick, sickness.

It is used 24 times as stated below mostly the word (11 Times) sickness. In all 24 times however this word means Physical sickness not spiritual

chŏlı̂y
Total KJV Occurrences: 24

sickness, 11
Deu_7:15, Deu_28:61, 1Ki_17:17, 2Ch_21:14-15 (3), 2Ch_21:19, Psa_41:3, Ecc_5:17, Isa_38:9, Hos_5:13

disease, 7
2Ki_1:2, 2Ki_8:8-9 (2), 2Ch_16:12 (2), 2Ch_21:18, Ecc_6:2

grief, 3
Isa_53:2-3 (2), Jer_6:7, Jer_10:19

griefs, 1
Isa_53:4

sick, 1
Isa_1:4-5 (2)

sicknesses, 1
Deu_28:59

At the end of the day remember what Jesus said, Be it unto you according to your faith. Jesus healed multitudes when He was here on earth and He still heals multitudes today period.

You can give one verse of scripture that makes a point to one individual and they receive it by faith and run with it and reap the benefits of Gods word.

Others however, you can give them 50 verses and they still, by an act of their own will choose not to believe.

Physical healing belongs to every believer, because one day, when we step into eternity for the believer that is, we will no longer be sick we will be made completely whole.

Dying is not the end of the world as many like to focus on and blame God for not healing and try to argue that healing is not in the atonement.

When you die in Christ you are being promoted to Gods Kingdom.

People focus on the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 and say they all died having not received the promises of God.

Has anyone ever considered the fact that they actually did receive EVERY promise when they reached Glory? When they died they were smack dab right in the midst of what they died in faith believing for, they saw and see Jesus.

God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. The first time I ever experienced absolute divine healing was when I was 17.

I was a sinner and met my first born againers, we worked together and I became very ill with strep throat.

They laid hands on me and prayed for me and I was instantly healed. I've experienced multiple healings since, now at 53.

I too have and had sickness in my body as well. Brothers, we are all going to die!!!! It is appointed unto us already once to die but then comes the judgement.

All the promises of God are yes! they are not up for debate, the only thing that stands between us and the promise is us, Never God.

Some promises will be fulfilled on this side of Glory and some on the other side.

When we preach the Gospel and tell people about their state of sin and hoplessness how many times do they bring up other people and their issues? They say, What about this guy, or why does God allow this or that?

When Jesus was resurrected he restored Peter asking him 3 times if Peter loved Him, after all that and when Jesus told him what manner of death Peter would end up dying, what did Peter say?

He pointed to John and said, What about him? Jesus said, what is that to you, if I allow him to tarry?

FOLLOW ME!

As far as turning this whole thread into WOF, still do not see it. I do not know about FranklinB, even if he is a Word of faither, it has no bearing on what Gods word says.

I choose not to believe in the word of faith of men but rather put my faith in the word of God.

Why do people get sick in the first place? For me, I know for a fact, I have gotten sick because of sin in my life, I was chastened, sought the Lord, repented, and the sickness lifted.

I have issues now, I am getting old, I trust God and His grace, but one day I will die and THEN I will be made completely whole because healing is IN the atonement.

Please brothers, I do not wish to fight or debate about this but had to say what I said. If you knew me, you would know it is never my intention to offend, hurt, or demean anyone.

But as we all are doing is contending for the faith because we love God, it does not make anyone less or more in His eyes. I know some will be offended by what I have said, but it is not my heart or intent.


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David Fella

 2014/5/31 10:37Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
brother i honestly cant see how any one could read mathew and isa ,and think otherwise ,,,the smiting of god and the bareing sickness is in the verry same verse ,,,,as the lamb of god he bore all our sin and sickness in his body on the cross which is the alter and was slayed and smittin of god ,, god excepted this as the atonment ,,,,,this is so verry clear


Brother, it is not very clear. If it were clear, it would be as universally accepted in evangelical Christianity as what is truly provided for in the atonement: man's redemption. If bodily healing held co-prominence with forgiveness of sin, Timothy's stomach problem would have been resolved with the same efficiency God forgives sin and there would be no need for wine (I Timothy 5:23), Paul would not have left Trophimus sick at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20), and Epaphroditus wouldn't have gotten as sick as he did (Philippians 2:25-27). Paul spoke of “a bodily illness” he had (Galatians 4:13-15). He also suffered a “thorn in the flesh” which God allowed him to retain (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). If our bodily healing is part of the atonement, these matters would be resolved as instantly and thoroughly as God forgives our sin upon repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

As far as I know, there has never been a case where God's will has been for a sinner to retain his or her sin (for His grace is sufficient to tolerate it) after coming to Him through genuine repentance and humility. You must come to terms with this reality. If both spiritual and physical healing are provided for in the atonement, both should be equally available, equally consistent, equally efficacious. One should not require a greater measure of faith to activate. In other words, the same faith that allows for sin's remittance must also heal all bodily sickness in that very same moment, if they are both part of the same atonement.

This, of course, does not happen. There is no way around this unless you are prepared to say (like Bill Johnson and others) that the Apostle Paul lacked the necessary faith in these instances for healing. But I don't not think you are ready to jump off that precipice.

Again, dear brother, God was already healing "all" bodily infirmities long before Jesus came to earth. If you were sick, you could basically get your healing on demand. You could get forgiveness of sin on demand, too. Everything was on demand, externally, under the Old Covenant. What could God offer to this fallen world through His Son's Atonement that they didn't already have?

P.S. I believe it is very healthy to discuss these things in a charitable, respectful manner. Dear brother I appreciate you expressing your point of view with deference and sharing your exegesis with the community. I wish all topics could be discussed here in such a manner, without emotions coming in and personal affronts being made. I commend you dear brother!

I think I've said all I can on the matter. Thank you again for the edifying discussion. Keep digging into the scriptures in true Berean fashion! Blessings!

Brother Paul






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Paul Frederick West

 2014/5/31 11:31Profile
amranger
Member



Joined: 2010/4/7
Posts: 71
Montana

 Re:

I've felt like I should write an article on diving healing and this thread has helped motivate me to actually write it out. My reason for posting is that in my research for this article I came across an article posted right here on Sermon Index. It was posted several years ago and didn't get any responses! It was written by A.B. Simpson.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38708&forum=34&0

Please read this article. It amazes me how people deny the connection between the verses in Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8. We do this to not only our own hurt but the whole world's!


_________________
Andrew

 2014/5/31 22:34Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

well i ment its verry clear to me but theres is many doctrines that are not unaversely accepted points of armininisim ,and calvinism ,,,things like election ,,, there can still be great divisions on doctrines ,,unanversal exceptance is not our mesuring stick of truth ,,surely we can agree on that ,,so i would not like to use that as an argument to discount a doctrine ,,i think to day the majority of christian have a twisted gosple when it comes to real repentence saving faith and holiness ,,we here are probably an exception...


brother i think we are only asuming at best due to the popurpus of scripture ,,,weather timothey stayed sick or got healed ,,,i dont think it is a good idea to use a verse like that ,to suport the idea that healing is not in the atonment ,,,,maby he was heald ,maby he wasnt ,,,,but if we take the leter james in to account and excepted it literaly and look to all the others healings which are many , he more then likey got healed at some point ,,,when we look at the other brother who paul left sick ,trophes,,i think that was his mane ,,,,,,,paul would have no doubt prayed for him as we all would have done ,,,but there was no instant healing,,,but paull did say god showed mercy and healed him in the end ,,,so that may have been what happend to timothey ,,,,,i , like to try to let scripture interprate other parts of scripture ,,one example to shine light on a another ,,,there is much heaing in the new testament but not much evadence of people staying sick and dieing of sickness ,,,,,when we look corinthians ,,,,,people were sick and died ,,paul used the word slept ,,becasue of sin regarding disonering the body and the blood of christ ,in the lords supper ,,,the flip side would be if they did not sin like that ,there would not be many sick or dieing ,due to whay paul called chastisement or judment

no where does paul say its ok your sick and there nothing you can do about ,,but james deals with it and say get the elders let them pray with faith , that WILL SAVE THE SICK

we dont see them saying what many christains are saying ,,that it is gods will that you be sick dont bother to keep praying and dont worry just except it

i cant find any place where that is said


i know of the verse where it must have been gods will to chastise the sinning brother when paull say to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh ,,,,,,,

some how that was to help this person repent and see the destrutive nature of sin ,,,hand him over to sin ,so he can hit the bottom so to speak ,,some times this will create a hating of the flesh and a real desire for god ,,,when god keeps his distance ,its a fearfull thing that can create an apatite for god ,,and thankfullness when one is fully restored ,,he who is forgiven much loves much ,,and grace seems more gracfull

the lord could have blinded paull and reveled him self at any time but god chose to do that after paul basicly became a muder of christians ,,,,now paull became the master at teaching self wothtlessness and total unwortheyness

i see your point that it seems like it takes more faith to be healed,,,maby we just have to much doubt stored up in the area of healing and miricals ,,maby it is becasue we have dweld so much of the one side of the gosple that part is more easly believed ,,, if faith is like a mustard ,,have we wartered with the word as we should ,,,i dont think i did for many years


dear brother i think the bible teaches that god passed over the sins previously commited in the old couvernt only due to the atonment performed in the new ,,,that was the only basis for healing an forgiveness ,,in our eyes ,the atonement happend 2000 or so years ago ,,in gods eyes jesus was the lamb slayed before the foulndation of the world ,,god is out side of time ,,,,,he sees the past present and future as one ,,other wise he could not have claimed to have slayed the lamb before the world was .....


brother its allways good to talk with you and seeing the way you treat others in this fourm it is surely salt and light in my eyes ,,,and i love to see a humble heart in action ,it allways makes an impression on me ,,,,i could imagine if we were or more like that our disusions would be full of good fruit all the time ,,,brother i dont want to seem like im a doctrine pusher ,,so with that i will bow out ,and say thank you for our chat

blessings

 2014/5/31 22:51Profile





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