Thoughts on the song Still Believe:

I've heard this song before and the testimony of my spirit is that the grounds are false. It is doing things that we never see in the New Testament regarding faith and walking in truth. You might think that because it is repeating the things that the Lord has done as real that it is inline but you have separate it correctly.

There is the issue with the use of the word "still" repeated so often. You don't use the word unless you possess doubt and here it sounds like the person has many reasons to disbelieve that God does these things which He does do.

There is also the issue of poor theology regarding the blood of Christ. The blood does not open deaf ear or heal blind eyes, God does because He has the power and authority. There is an issue wherein the Word links forgiveness of sin to healing but that is also linked to repentance. It may be suggested that here that the blood is being worshipped rather than God Himself.

Then it asserts that things like disease, depression and so on have no place before God. In what sense, if God sent them, how could they have no place before God. And yet, in the Gospels we know that Christ did not heal everyone.

Finally, in the last stanza there are the lines about not fearing. The Word teaches that having a clear conscience toward God will free you of fear. I know this from experience as I have come to obedience in areas where the Spirit has convicted me. Believing as mental assent does not free you from fear, obedience does which is faith walked out.

I am really troubled by lines like, "I believe that you are more than enough for me," because the speaker is admitting that Christ is not enough and they are tyring to project something rather than being still and resting in God. This is similar to all those songs that about how the singer is going to be doing something. The question is why aren't they in that place now?

If you are getting something from songs like this, you are in a very sorry condition and are backslidden. You can't walk in truth and say these kinds of things because they will not be true of you or God.

On one last note, the line asking the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself and claiming that it is happening is seriously in error. If those meeting and singing together are born again, the Christ is already present among them. If they are full of the Holy Spirit, He should be with them all the time. If they have these amazing "anointings" that you have to call to manifest then that implies that the "presence" has left and must return. It's complete error. Invoking the presence of the Spirit does not have any place in Scripture that I am aware of. This is a sign of a church that is acting like a harlot. She calls to her lovers. The married, submissive bride waits upon her bridegroom and He comes. He is lord, not her.

Jeremy,

I agree with most of what you said.

Here is what Hosea says,

"“Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
My people ask counsel from their wooden idols,
And their staff informs them.
For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray,
And they have played the harlot against their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops,
And burn incense on the hills,
Under oaks, poplars, and terebinths,
Because their shade is good.
Therefore your daughters commit harlotry,
And your brides commit adultery."

..."Because their shade is good"... Sounds like pragmatism to me.

Also:

"“Because Ephraim has made many altars for sin,
They have become for him altars for sinning.
I have written for him the great things of My law,
But they were considered a strange thing."

God wrote His word, and the things in it were strange to them...wow.

Well I would definitely say that comparing listening to a Jesus Culture song to walking into a porn shop is just a tad over the top.

It would probably also be for the best if you don't call persons who listen to this music a bunch of backsliders. The most solid Christians I know, several who are personal friends, listen to JC music. They are decidedly not in a backslidden condition nor are they deceived nor are they in danger of the fires of hell. They are simply people who walk the walk in their homes and work places, serve in their churches and who love to worship.

I think most mainstream evangelical Christians do not love to worship. That is just being truthful because I know many of them. If more than 3 songs are sung on a Sunday morning they get grouchy. And I think they see people that DO love to worship as a little odd. That's a real shame.

_________________
Todd

Jeremy---

The Brooklyn tabernacle choir (Jim cymbalas) church sings a song titled "more than enough". Are they backsliders? Brother Cymbalas must be for letting them sing such heresy.

The thought is BIBLICAL He is "able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think."

I could parse and tear up a bunch of the old hymns like you did with that JC song but why would I want to do that.

_________________
Todd

I really don't think it is necessary to tear apart Jesus Culture music, although it does expose rotten theology, but I think the issue here is what is being promoted by their theology by the leadership and by the song leaders during concerts, etc.

Mormons are very family-oriented. They also take care of one another, very well. I am serious, they are much better at "fellowshipping" than we are in many cases. They also are extremely good at mission work. They know how to engage a culture on their terms and produce converts, without the use of any sort of force. They are incredibly good at it, at least on the surface. So, why shouldn't we start taking their ideas and using them for our fellowships? Why not take their ideas and use them for our mission work? It works for them? Some of the concepts they employ are very biblical.

Why shouldn't we? Because it opens a lot of doors to places that we don't want to be going. Things that in the long-run may have worked for a season but will destroy us later. There may be some JC music that is moderately acceptable, but why bother with it? Why not just write and sing stuff that is solid from the get-go? Why give your child a viper to play with when there are much safer alternatives?

This is part of the problem with Christianity in America.

We do all kinds of pragmatic, biblical-looking things, but when the next generation of us rolls around, they do not know that there is inherent danger in the things the previous generation promoted. Altar calls, invitations, the sinner's prayer, church buildings, etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on with the Christian-looking things that we have, but let's get down to facts: because those things placate or down right replace biblical preaching, teaching, etc the next generation will fall, hook-line-and-sinker for the deception that lies within. You, me, and our children are not strong enough to overcome that; we must keep our eyes fixed on Jesus only. Solo Christo--through Christ alone. Golly, I wish we could get back to that. I wish I would get back to that.

You can tear the mold off of a piece of bread and eat it, but that doesn't mean you won't get sick. If mold is visible on the surface, whether you can see it or not in other spots doesn't matter. It has already infected the entire piece of bread.

What did Jesus say? "A little leaven, leavens the whole lump!"

********************************************************

"I think most mainstream evangelical Christians do not love to worship. That is just being truthful because I know many of them. If more than 3 songs are sung on a Sunday morning they get grouchy. And I think they see people that DO love to worship as a little odd. That's a real shame."

THIS is very telling about us. Singing songs can indeed be a PART of worship. But that isn't worship in and of itself. It is so much more than that. When a believer says that they love worship, but they only mean that they love singing songs about God, it reveals that their worship is shallow or immature. How could a deaf man worship in such a case? He can't sing. Shoot, he can't tell he is even making a "joyful noise."

It is about our lives:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

So, giving ourselves to God and conforming to HIS image is what worship is all about. Enough of the entertainment. Spirit and truth--the Father seeks such to worship him.

JC promotes a "spirit." but it isn't the Spirit of God. And they most certainly don't present truth. So it is not worship music. It is christiany-sounding, ear-tickling music. That's all.

Just look at this song in comparison to so many of the others we hear today:

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea.
A great high Priest whose Name is Love
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on His hands,
My name is written on His heart.
I know that while in Heaven He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.

When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God, the Just, is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.

Behold Him there! The risen Lamb,
My perfect, spotless righteousness,
The great unchangeable I AM,
King of glory and of grace,
One in Himself I cannot die.
My soul is purchased by His blood,
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ, my Savior and my God!


It's just a totally different caliber of song than many that we sing today

"The Word teaches that having a clear conscience toward God will free you of fear. I know this from experience as I have come to obedience in areas where the Spirit has convicted me. Believing as mental assent does not free you from fear, obedience does which is faith walked out."

Really? I read somewhere that perfect love casts out all fear.......

"Well I would definitely say that comparing listening to a Jesus Culture song to walking into a porn shop is just a tad over the top."

Nothing is too over the top for sermonindex, TMK. Maybe when we have finished typing rant after rant after rant about how damned, hell-bound and utterly heretical we reckon things are (be it the church, "false Christians", worship songs ,popular christian books, mega churches, conferences, particular church leaders, people who have slightly different doctrines, movies, sports, fun etc......), maybe then true revival will actually come.

I know john piper is held in pretty high regard here but I know he spoke at Passion 2013 and guess who was on the stage leading worship prior to him speaking? Horrors.

_________________
Todd

Havok/

I can appreciate the words of the hymn you posted just like I can appreciate Shakespeare.

But times change.

I realize that relevancy is a naughty word especially in a forum like this. But I would rather see 10000 youths at a hillsong united concert worshipping (yes worshipping) than 10000 youths not worshipping. You are not going to get a lot of youth into a venue to sing hymns. That may be sad but it is true.

I certainly understand that there is more to worship than singing but we have been talking about music. The fact is that Christians in America as a rule have a tolerance for about 10 minutes of singing before they start squirming. That's just the way it is.

_________________
Todd

"Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away..."

I just don't think were quite on the same page, TMK.

Butters,

In regards to nothing being too over the top for sermonindex. You're probably right. I always (and most people who know me know this quite well) use extreme examples to make a point. If that detracts from what I am saying, then I am sorry. But I am just a man. I understand what I mean, but maybe not everyone else does.




I will be done with this thread, but before I do, I will post one last worship song. I do find it to be a great encouragement:

You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!
Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand—
when I awake, I am still with you.
If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.