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Andrew, I find it pointless to respond to you as you constantly put words in my mouth and misrepresent what I say, attempting to put me on the defensive which I will not capitulate to. The demon spirit behind the Amalekites has not died, even though the Amalekites died. Is that so hard to understand?
No that is an easy thing to understand. It was the easiest part. How it is applied is more difficult to understand.
The issue I have with a mandatory tithe to the Lord's house is not that Christians are being coaxed to do something that they are financial incapable of doing. No. It is far more sinister than that. What I have noticed is that those who tithe develop a checklist mentality, "oh I did that. I tithe. I don't have to give anymore." They shut up their hearts and absolutely cling to their 90% because that is THEIRS and they already gave God His 10%.
There is no way to change this attitude even if we did away with the tithe altogether unless the Lord Himself judges His house. In Jerusalem where the kingdom was increasing daily with peace, at the time of the apostles, Ananias and Sapphira were judged unto death. Yet the sin was not in giving, nor was it a not giving, it was lying against the Holy Spirit. The outward action was withholding a measure of their intended gift having sold a spare property to support the Lord's work. The inward action was to conceive a lie to cover their change of mind. And Peter asked the question 'why has Satan put this thought into your hearts?'
“But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.” (Acts 5:3–5, NASB95)
I wonder how this admonishment of Peter stacks up to the claim that everything we own belongs to the Lord. If we intend it to be so then it may well be so. But if we say we intend it there is coming a day when we will be judged by that intention.
“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control?
Possessions appear to have a different meaning to money itself. One is clearly ownership the other is stewardship. The tithe it seems to me falls into the category of stewardship. What that means in the end will be a matter for the Lord Himself. Yet that we have control over our own finances is clear. Control always means authority. So I cannot help but believe that if a man chooses to give ten percent and keeps hold of the ninety percent he will be rewarded according to the ten percent and have to give an account for the ninety percent. The implication which Peter is making appears to be examine your heart and be honest about what you intend.
| 2014/4/10 14:16|
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Maybe the best way to think about me and my stuff is to take up the attitude that Paul had in Philippians 3: To count all things as loss--even garbage in comparison to knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.
"Money? Forget it. I want to know the Lord, and I am willing to part with all of it, if necessary." Maybe that is the attitude I should strive for, in regards to money.
| 2014/4/10 15:09||Profile|
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Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, WAS IT NOT THINE OWN? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
First, it is important to note that Peter did not mention tithing at all. In fact, he said that after the land was sold the money was still their own and in their control, just as it was before they sold it. That is quite different than telling them that they were required by the Lord to pay 10 percent but that 90 percent that remained was in their control. He did not say, "now that your asset has been converted to cash, you are required to pay 10%." No mention of that at all.
If Peter had the concept of tithing that the church today has, (which is nothing at all similar to the Old Testament concept of Tithes and Offerings), Peter would have taken the opportunity to say something like this:
"Ananias, why have you lied about how much of the proceeds you are giving? After all, God only requires you to give ten percent. Anything above ten percent is a "freewill offering" to the Lord and you may do with it as the Spirit leads"
But again, any reference to tithing is obviously missing. Again, the NT is silent about tithing. This would have been a perfect spot to teach that Christians are under obligation to pay the tithe. But it isn't here. In fact, it isn't anywhere!
THE LAW OF TITHING IS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
I fail to see any PAYMENT SYSTEM that we are under in the NT.
| 2014/4/10 15:24|
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I go with the stewardship concept, it clearly has to be delegated, and it is not our own. That's why i appreciate joyful givers, they understand that it was given to us, so we also can give whenever we see a need.
Why talk about the law and the 10%? Why not give more than that? Has absolutely nothing to do with the law, it's about if grace has touched our hearts or not.
Besides, this might just be my personal experience, whenever i regard money not as my personal posession and kind of 'drop it' on people, doors open, and new ways of receiving 'new money' appear out of nowhere. Who opened these doors, and for what purpose arrive these streams at our door? Take a wild guess.
| 2014/4/10 20:03||Profile|
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a-servant...Besides, this might just be my personal experience, whenever i regard money not as my personal posession and kind of 'drop it' on people, doors open, and new ways of receiving 'new money' appear out of nowhere. Who opened these doors, and for what purpose arrive these streams at our door? Take a wild guess.
I can totally relate! There used to be this homeless guy that always stood on the corner of the last intersection before I got up on the frwy. when I headed out in that direction. This is the God's honest truth, every time I was able to stop at that intersection, and handed him a few bucks, I was Blessed with a really nice profitable job just days later, yes I said days later. I don't know were he went, but maybe God has him standing on another corner somewhere, so someone else can Bless him and be Blessed. :)
| 2014/4/10 20:23||Profile|
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It strikes me that there are those who are being legalistic about not being legalistic. Thank the Lord that I am free of all that. If someone wants to give ten percent what possible business is it of yours or anyone else's. Get over yourselves. Who are you to instruct another mans servant?
Do you have your freedom to do as you please?. If so then you are yet in captivity to the flesh, because the freedom for which we were set free is the cross until Christ Himself returns. It is the yoke of obedience realising that God is good and just and true. Freedom to do as you please when you please is not freedom. It is lawlessness. Then again anyone who agrees that the Scriptures is lying when it speaks about the law of sin and death working in our members and says it is a doctrine of hell, clearly has some especial liberty which few others have heard about. Be careful lest you find in the end you have not pressed freedom onto your brother, but lawlessness. Rest is the thing we are given, not freedom to do as we please.
It is a strange business this freedom which some men so love they will destroy nations with it. Is there such a thing as a tithe unto the Lord? For the man who believes it by faith it is true. Whether other men make profit from that is a matter for the Lord.
| 2014/4/10 23:22|
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"Get over yourselves". I found myself chuckling at this statement for some reason:)
Perhaps this one statement though is the most important thing uttered on this whole entire thread...and it applies to ALL sides of the argument.
I have been wondering lately what the Lord thinks of me when I tap furiously away on the internet striving to get my tiny voice heard and to convince anonymous people how right I am about my puny opinions?
This thread does have one merit though, to clearly display once again how fruitless and time wasting Christian forums and facebook discussions can be. Perhaps if we put as much passion and effort into seeking the face of our Savior as we do about arguing these non-essentials we would come back on here and find we had no desire left to argue non-essentials but a great deal of new found passion to encourage one another to live whole heartedly for Christ?
| 2014/4/11 1:08|
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this has been interesting ,,,,and as usual brother Andrew has givern me much to think about ,,,,as I was leaning towards the seeming obvious and elementary ,possission of tithing not being for me or Christians
it is true tho that even the holy spirit can convict and tell a person to make regular roughly ten percent payments to a church or a missions society ,,,and then not have to led and remind me every week ,through a word of knowledge ,or even less a leading, to continue to do so
but if some one legalistsly with out knowing ,, trys to pressure me to to not do this by saying it is wrong to tithe ten percent ,,,,,
who becomes guilty of legalism ???????
need I say the one who preaches to me that im doing wrong by giving ten percent
we need to watch what we say in regards to this issue
and not become unknowingly hipacreats
| 2014/4/11 4:38||Profile|
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What is truly amazing is KingJimmy original article does not claim anyone is wrong for giving, he was merely talking to the fact that many pastors pressure people into giving ten percent when they do not have the monies to do so. He spoke about the pressure and condemnation placed on people, the bondage placed on people to follow a law that was given in the old testament. He never said giving was not required,we are to give our of the abundance of our hearts was mentioned several times, but then that is how this forum usually works people read and see what they want to only.
Personally if you feel led to give ten percent and GOD has guided you to do so then do it, if you feel led to give fifty percent, or one hundred percent then do so. No one said you can't or shouldn't...
| 2014/4/11 7:46||Profile|
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I honestly believe the majority of Christians and people in general in usa and Australia probably live beoned there means , and that is the reason why they are in debit rather then blaming a ten percent offering or tithe
most people don't hear what paul said as one of our example seters that with food and clothing ,he is content ,,he even said he was content with want ,,and he lived in a rental home rather then owning his own house
the bible says own know man anything
if we were willing to sacrifice the idea of the American dream to go in to debt for 30 years to own our own home and then die just after we finialy pay the debt ,,,,,and be content with our heavenly home and for sake the mundain trinkets and toys of the world system ,,we would be able to afford around the ten percent for missions ,and extra to help the poor when the opportunity arises and even save a little money
interests on lones materialism and and wanting to much and perusing that by feeding the covertus spirit imbedded in the flesh is the sickness of the world and is infected many Christians and so called Christians
im not speaking about those who are already rich in this age ,,paul said to those always be willing to share and give ,,,but he said all those who desire to be rich fall in to the snare of the devil and pierce them selves with many sorrows
the Australian dream is to seek riches , if we want to compare us with the rest of the world thats what it is
but if we seeked first the kingdom of heaven every thing we need will be added to our life ,,,,god knows what we all as individuals need and ,,and to some he may give less and some more ,,he may even make some one wealthy by seeking the kingdom come ,,but that up to him and not us
all my life I was broke till a started to seek gods kingdom and in the last 5 years he blessed me with much more food and fish that I need and more money then I need 25000 more ,,,,,,a good wife ,,,,,I have forsaken bank lones so I wont own a house unless I pay mainly cash for one but im not seeking that ,and im still have the same job a glorified labour plaster ,,,,,
Jesus said we should forsake our own lives to be a worthy disciple ,,,we should not in any way set our minds on those things that are on the earth ,but in the heavenlys
if we do that we know that what we receive comes from his hand and not from our fleshly efforts
rather then winge about what we all know about the pasters and the church and state the obvious and amen each others ,,we should exhort one another as Jesus and Paul did ,,,,,,,,forsake this life
I need to hear that and be reminded of that
faith with out works is dead ,,,,,,demonstrate your faith by doing holy selfless works
he who sows sparingly will reap little
I see so much of us stating the obvious and patting one another on our backs ,,,,,,,,
none of this is impressing the lord
knowledge puffs up ,,its not edifying anyone , love does that ,, don't be fooled it wont conform us to the image of the son
I don't expect to get an amen for saying this ,,but please brethren just think on these things
the lord will be home soon ,real soon ,,hard times are at the door ,,what is going to matter in these final seconds of this age ,,,,,what will matter
I pray that god helps us be ;;;;;;;;;;;;; slow to speak
and slow to wrath
and eager to give
and quick to forgive
gods blessings on all of us
| 2014/4/11 8:55||Profile|