| Re: |
Just one more word...no maybe a few more then that.
One time I was sharing my lament with some church leaders about the apostasy that befell my generation. We had the best Bible teachings at church, parochial schools, Bible Schools, colleges and yet there was wholesale abandonment of complete Trust in the WORD. WHY? Why did it happen? They were silent - they were well aware of what I spoke. Then one asked me, "why did you not apostasize?" I was totally stumped, never thought of that before. Then the words came to me and I replied, "the hand of God was upon me." This is true. It was not because I earned it but it is simply the mercy and grace of God at work. No other explanation exists.
I would guess this is why there are still faithful folks around - all because of the hand of God. I do not think any other explanation will do.
| 2014/4/10 10:42||Profile|
| Re: |
I will go at least one more post here and then see. Not sure any profitability to be had on this discussion if we are not looking for wisdom from scripture ... but will just see how it plays out.
I will answer a few of the things you asked/stated
Thank you for letting us know that you have read the book "Angels on Assignment". Obviously, it interested you because you have had many experiences with angels. Did you have these experiences before or after reading the book, and do you seek these experiences? I am asking because I think we are all interested in how you determine their authenticity as coming from God. How do you test the spirits?
1. Just-in, it appears that is an exaggeration designed to "stick" me to Roland Buck. Perhaps you did not mean it that way ... but it surely appears so. ACTUALLY I said I read his book over 20+ YEARS AGO. Never since. I only brought it up because you have quoted it again, and again in the thread. I don't remember my interest level at the time 20+ years ago. I consistently read on average a book a week. That is a lot of books over time. In addition I read the New Testament every week for several years. If you reread my actual statement I said I have no real knowledge of Buck's book and actually could not care less what he said. Scripturally though ... that is another matter.
2. I never said I have had "many experiences with angels." You said that. I have had the number of experiences that the Father deemed necessary for me to accomplish His will in the earth. Whether that is a few or a great many by any mans count I care not.
3. Buck's book has had no (as in ZERO in my estimation) effect on my life. My experiences in God were sweet and marvelous before reading his book (a book that I can hardly remember) decades ago. My experiences in God have been sweet, marvelous, and unchanged after reading his, or any book. His book has had no real impact on my life that I can see. However it obviously impacted you greatly. You bring it up again and again. You quote it again and again. It frames much of your theology in this area. However, it is reactionary theology. Many of your steps were formed as reactions against what you read in his book it seems. It has definitely affected you.
4. I do not ever go seeking experiences. Those are at God's pleasure and purpose. I simply keep my life and heart in a place before Him that I can hear Him accurately if He wishes to communicate anything with me. If He desires to witness in my spirit, send a person with a confirming word, speak to me from His Word, send an angel because of the crucial nature of the situation, or any of countless other ways He may choose to speak to us I am merely an available and listening son. Never go actively seeking experiences but always be open to any experiences that the Lord may wish to send. Seeking after experiences can potentially take you into error. However, not being open to experiences that He may legitimately wish to send will take you into error just as quickly. Both are forms of rebellion. They are just opposite ends of the same envelope. I simply let God know I am available and open to anything He wishes for me. After that the call is His.
5. You ask how I would "test spirits". I am going to just list a very basic set of steps that I would use for any supernatural encounter. I will then contrast them with your 5 steps.
Steps For Evaluation Of A Supernatural Encounter
Does their message in any way contradict the Gospel of Scripture (Is their Gospel the same as a sinless Christ crucified for our sins, dead, buried, raised in victory conquering death, hell, and the grave)
B. Is their message in full agreement with the message of the scriptures (Spirit and Word agree) this is similar to A but applies if a wider message is delivered
C. Does their message and ministry honor The Father, Christ Jesus, and The Holy Spirit.
D. What fruit does their coming and message bring. (The fear of the Lord, Christ exalting, turning hearts to God, information for harvest, etc.)
E. If something is asked of me would my part be in full and total agreement with the scriptures.
F. Is it something that The Holy Spirit has already spoken to my heart about. In essence is this encounter merely a strong confirmation of what The Holy Spirit has already dealt with me about.
So if I were to have an encounter with an angel tomorrow I would ask those questions. If my answers were that the angel had the same Gospel of Christ that we do, their message was in full agreement with the scriptures, their message and ministry honored The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they and their message produced good and Godly fruit, the part they asked of me was in full and total scriptural agreement, and it was confirming something that The Holy Spirit has already been speaking to me about then I will accept it as from The Lord.
Let me now contrast my steps with yours. You stated your 5 steps were -
1. Are the angels identified by non-biblical names?
2. Are the angels given non-biblical descriptions?
3. Are they performing roles beyond biblical context?
4. Are they sources of additional revelatoin beyond biblical content?
5. Are they in any way proclaiming another gospel?
When I asked you for scriptural backing on these steps you provided absolutely zero scriptural support except for step 5. A step which I whole heartedly agree with.
Some of your steps are easily side stepped by even a low level demon.
For example .... if a demon were to show up and call himself Michael he would pass your first step. However, if God himself were to send an angel to you with critical information and his name was Nathan you would reject him even though sent by God Himself. You are picking some steps to judge by that are foolish. As you can see a demon could pass this step. This step could also keep you from actually receiving information from God.
Again, your second step is set up to fail at being an effective means of evaluation. Several demons could show up and momentarily present themselves in whatever physical manner you felt necessary to meet the step. However if God Himself were to send an angel in a form you were unfamiliar with, or even a Biblical form you were not acquainted with, you would reject it even though it was from God Himself. With your second step it is quiet possible to have a demon pass your step and an angel fail it. You are focusing on the wrong criteria .... you are looking on the "outside".
Just-in ... you are concerned over the arrangement of consonants and vowels in their name .... what clothes they appear to have on .... really?!?!
I do not wish to offend you ... and I tried to go the back door route .... however your command of scripture is a bit lacking in this area and it is leaving you focused on things that don't matter and rejecting the things that do. Again, I do not wish to offend but you made several definitive statements in a few of your posts stating emphatically what God would and would not do. The problem was I immediately had several scriptural passages come to mind that are in direct opposition to your statements. For example ....
1. Nothing is ever said about what they wear. But all of a sudden in the end-times we know what they wear and they seem to be pretty cool looking suits (appealing to the lust of the eyes).
Well Just-in ... again I don't want to hurt your feelings but that is just 100% incorrect. Immediately I think of 3 instances where angelic clothing is mentioned in scripture. There may be more but 3 come readily to mind. It really seems irrelevant most of the time. I would suppose the reason more clothing isn't recorded is because it is of no real importance to the message or ministry they were performing. In fact scripture says of one particular angel that he was wearing a cloud! I feel fairly certain that if someone had told you they saw angel wearing a cloud you would have labeled them as deceived and dangerous. However, it is straight from scripture and happened to one of the 12 apostles. Will you heap the same judgment on him that you would on a person that told you that today?
You made five other similar statements that are flat contradictions to clear scripture. I won't list them here as it may seem like piling on at this point.
Just-in, again please don't be offended. However, it seems very apparent to me that your knowledge of scripture on this topic is still pretty shallow. You need to do some real deep digging on this area if you want the truth. If you still just feel the need to defend you 5 steps then there is nothing to be done for now. If however you truly want truth and to be a blessing to the body then start over without anyones books. Don't just read every scripture but immerse yourself in each and every one. Ask exploratory questions from every angle of the text. Keep a log/journal of your findings in every instance. Only then after your personal study is fully completed should you begin to read further and then only true scholars of Biblical language, historic culture, history, etc. that can actually add context and substance to what the original message though the Biblical author was. Forego the current "hot" books if you are after truth. Only after much time spent in this way will you be found to have dug sufficiently to gain true gold in this or any area of scriptural study. You don't find large quantities of real gold just lying around on top of the ground... you have to dig for it. The same is true Biblically. You have to invest much study and time if you want the truth. This is the path if you want truth on any topic... including angels. If this seems to arduous then perhaps it is not truth you are actually seeking but anything that will support your ideas. If you simply go to scripture looking for proof texts to support an already determined idea then you will always be short of truth and often deceived. You must let the text of scripture shape your beliefs even when the text destroys what you previously held to so deeply.
If you wish to continue the discussion based on Biblical ways of evaluation, the steps I have shared as opposed to the 5 steps you gave earlier, or any actual thoughts on the Biblical idea of angels I would continue it. However, I have no desire to discuss current pop philosophy or someones books on angels or pop philosophy and books on much anything else for that matter.
If it progressed civilly centered on a Biblical discussion I might be willing to share an event or two I have witnessed that could help people understand how those Biblical stories about angels play out when applied to actual life in 2014 America.
| 2014/4/11 12:27||Profile|