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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2008
Joplin, Missouri


God chose Israel as His people for the purpose of revealing Himself and His plan of redemption to the world. So, the foundations of Christianity were on the context of the Hebrew culture. So, there is benefit to understanding the culture so that we can more rightly interpret scripture. According to Paul in Romans they were cut off that we might be grafted in, but there is coming a time when they will return and receive the very saviour they were chosen to reveal but rejected instead. In that sense, Christianity had Hebrew roots.

The Hebrew roots movement goes far beyond this and, in my opinion, seeks to do many of the same things that Paul warned against in Galatians. I have seen some in this movement that seek to write all of Paul's writing out of the Canon as they begin to see his teachings as opposed to their own. They seem to me to be modern day Judaisers who seek to bring back a bondage to the law.


 2014/3/14 11:44Profile

Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa


Very well put Blaine!!!

Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/3/14 12:10Profile


by a-servant on 2014/3/12 23:09:04

just-in, so you ignore the millenium prophecies? Why is that?

Because the prophets must be ignored in order to understand Jesus Christ?

And that question comes from a member of the non-Hebrew-Root's-corner.

You think that everyone that reads the prophets is in the Judaism movement? Oh dear.

I personally do not find any biblical basis that we should expect a physical kingdom on earth (one thousand year millenial reign). This expectation that many have actually is contrary to everything that the Scriptures tells us about the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not limited to 1,000 years, it is eternal. It is not physical but spiritual and it is not Jewish but universal.

God used Israel as a pictorial representation of a much bigger King and a much bigger Kingdom. Not the physical king and kingdom (Saul, David, Solomon, Israel) that everyone saw.

It was God's intention to use the physical kingdom of Israel to portray the spiritual Kingdom that He intended to restore through His Son, in the new covenant.

God is Spirit and His kingdom is spiritual. We are born into this kingdom as "kings and priests" by a spiritual birth.

The Jewish nation rejected God as their King and wanted a man. They rejected all the prophets and then rejected Jesus as their King and by rejecting Him and His message, they rejected His kingdom.

Because of their pride, (much like the pride of Israel who wanted Saul as their King), they could not fathom that their king would be a suffering King, a servant King, or a rejected and despised king. Adam would not have God rule over him, Israel of the OT would not have God be their King and Israel of the NT would not bow to Jesus as their King. Throughout the entire Bible, the Hebrew nation rejected the spiritual King and the spiritual Kingdom. They were looking for a nationalistic, materialistic king and kingdom which included racial supremacist. Jesus and His kingdom did not fit their idea.

The OT is a picture of a people set apart for God, but the kingdom of God is universal and includes all mankind.

Today, many still want to crown Him the King of a physical world who will bring "good government and reconstruction. These segments of Christianity are called by many names.

God's kingdom is already present, universal, spiritual and eternal. He reigns and rules as King, now in the hearts of His people!

 2014/3/14 17:14

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1838
Hemel Hempstead

 Re: The rise of a new Judaism

As a christian I believe in Israel from the fact of the bible as most of it was written by Jews and we have a Jewish Messiah. Jesus is returning to Israel not New York as the Jehovahs witnesses say.
I came to a knowledge of Israel through reading Ezekial and Jeremiah as I could not explain the temple in the last chapters.
I decry People who support Israel but do not support saving Jewish People or who have fallen into aberrant Jewish theology. I would agree that some Jewish Groups are going almost into Interfaith theology but that should not decry what we read from the bible alas should the false keep us from the true. Should we not have a love of Israel.
I believe in the millennial reign of Christ. If you believe in realities such as Revival the bible states that All Israel shall be saved Romans 11.
Jesus is essentially Jewish, we have a Jewish messiah who died for our sins and rose from the dead and if we have any other we have a false Jesus. As I do not like to battle against the many jesus's of peoples imaginations even my own. I would rather deal with the real Jesus who has a real people.
Phil Fernandes states that if we have the wrong theology we experience the wrong experience of Jesus.

I would agree there are many wacky Jewish christian groups but there are so many Wacky Christian groups aswell. I have stories.

Works theology is so prevalent in all Protestant Groups not only messianic ones.

Are Bible is more than simply the New testament alot of people do not believe in a litural adam and eve or that God created the world in seven litural days. I Do and I believe in a litural Hell. Are bible is a historical book and matches the world that we live in. There are no transitional fossils still around, yet there is massive amounts of archaolocial evidence for the existence of different events in scripture. One doctrine effects different doctrines if there is not seven days of creation, then things like Adam and Eve, sin are real myths then Jesus had no reason to die.
We can make up a Jesus in our own imagination but preferably we have to meet the real Jewish Messiah one day.
We have to believe that God is as detailed about the past as he is the future and when the bible says that there will be a millennial reign of Christ. I believe it and I believe it based on the evidence from scipture as I did not believe in this doctrine when I was younger I was convinced not by any teaching but simply reading scipture.

The AntiChrist as it says in Daniel is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel and there are many unfufilled events such as the rebuilding of the Jewish temple yet to be fufilled by scipture including the falling of Damascus.

How can we not love Jesus but despise his people. In Romans it says that they were blinded so that you may have salvation and how much more joy when they are saved. There is no redemptive history without the Jewish people as the new testament was written by Jewish apostles in a jewish context. It is also the same with the church how can we despise Jesus but hate the church. I know that many Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus are going to Hell and so many Gentiles they are going to everlasting torment. If you have ever evangelised the Jewish community in London like I have they are the most hardest people on earth to talk to as they have an entire history of christians persecuting them calling them Christ killers and it is a miracle if they get saved. In Israel the orthodox jews persecute the ordinary Christians. To me it is even a miracle one is saved as I go to a church in Golders Green and we have not seen any Orthodox Jews saved as they rip up your tracts and spit on you, the whole community will despise the person that you have evangelised to if you go and even talk to an Orthodox Jew.
In short if you do not worship a Jewish Messiah who do you worship is it not idolotry to worship someone different?

I would agree there is a alot of wacky people who are into Israel and slowly creeping into the Interfaith lines but I would not despise those for the ones who truly believe in Israel, Unfortunatly for this post it would take me to long to back up every point with scriptural evidence which i would want to do.


Dominic Shiells

 2014/3/14 18:06Profile


Don a reading of Romans 9-11 sees God`s heart for the Jews. His heart is for a remnant to come out of Israel. His heart is to bring forth hey people out of the Jews to saving faith and life in Jesus.

In Revelation 7:1-8 this remnant is seen as those 12,000 that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel. I would believe these to be saved Jews who have out their trust in their Messiah Jesus.

The calling out of the sons of Israel is set against the backdrop in vs 9 of that multitude of redeemed humanity. That would be those from every nation and tribe and language and people who have put their hope in Jesus.. For in vs 10 they cry Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.

What I am describing here is the bride of Christ composed of Jew and Gentile believer. This us the vision John saw in Rev.7.


 2014/3/14 18:33


Brethren our sister Leslie posted a link to a message by Art Katz on thus subject of Messianic Judiasm. Her link is in the Scrpiture and Doctrine section.

If anyone could speak with authority on this issue it should be Art Katz as he is of Jewish background.


 2014/3/14 18:36



Can you provide the link?

 2014/3/14 19:24


Just-in not sure how to do that. But go to Scripture and Doctrine. Leslie who goes by Lesnanto posted the Art Katz link under the thread Beyond Messianic Judiasm.

Just listened to it. Art describes a faith beyond being Jewish. He speaks of a New Testament apostolic faith to reach Jews and Gentiles.

Very good message.


 2014/3/14 20:16


Ok, thanks Blaine.

 2014/3/14 20:52

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


"In short if you do not worship a Jewish Messiah who do you worship is it not idolotry to worship someone different?"

I hear you. i go one step further: If you are not a born-again Jew, you are not a Christian.

Bless you brother, you do not have the problems almost all Americans have. God chose Israel, and always will choose Israel, not America. Yes I know i'm mixing natural with spiritual here, and I do it on purpose. Everything has been taken out of context in the modern American church, and that's part of her dilemma.

 2014/3/14 22:09Profile

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