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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Bill Gothard Placed on Administrative Leave

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Beige
Member



Joined: 2012/7/14
Posts: 54


 Re:

Well I pray God will bless us all with wisdom! Sree, if you are referring to my statement about Bill's sins and my own sin being covered by the blood of Christ as being a lack of seriousness to sin -- I believe I may have not done my best in trying to communicate the reason I made that statement: Rather it is because of the seriousness of ALL sin and the power of God to convict us of it that brings us to repentance -- It is only after acknowledging the seriousness of our sin that we come to repentance -- then the blood of Jesus does indeed cover us -- It covers our sins and blots them out. And God does this for each and every person who truly repents. That is what the scriptures teach and this is how God has worked in my life -- And do I still believe Bill Gothard is a man of God and that he has a repentant heart? Absolutely! And where is the horrible sin this accused man is supposed to have committed? Was it because he kissed a woman when he was a young single man? Other than that he is accused of defrauding of which he made apologies -- Bill's own definition of that word is raising desires in anyone that can not be righteously fulfilled. So he may have apologized for allowing a child to stare too long at candy that was forbidden by his mother -- Anyway, to leap from an apology to the serious charges of criminal acts of sexual harassment is reaching, way reaching ..... and appears to be malicious. And yes, I attended five of IBLP seminars and am very thankful to God for giving me that opportunity. Now that having been said -- I am going to be in earnest prayer for this man in this trying time and if it is found that he has committed any serious crime, I will be praying for his redemption and restoration. I for one can not see how it would please God for his church to turn her back on this man -- especially in light of the unrepentant sins of the people of this nation whom we still pray for and ask God for His redeeming grace to bring into true repentance... Thank you. I will not address this thread again.

 2014/3/5 6:17Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Well I pray God will bless us all with wisdom!



Great prayer! My questions would be:

What kind of wisdom are we in need of?

What need arises from this moral crisis in the Christian community?

That, to me, would be a profitable discussion.

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2014/3/5 8:06Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

after much prayer and really reading what frank posted in the other thread i think it better that leave this thread. i changed this post because what i had written before was not edifying to the body and i did not want to cause anyone to stumble. i will be in prayer for all concerned parties and Gods heart and will prevail in this.

rdg

 2014/3/5 9:01Profile









 Re:

One thing I would like to be able to understand which is in a sense removed from any moral issues has to do with the teachings of Bill Gothard.

I understand the issue of overstating the role of authority in the family and from that extrapolating a legalistic position in which children and other family members can be dealt with in a less than gentle way. That aspect of the effect of Bill's teachings appears to be fairly easily understood. I think that also explains the response of some who emphasise equality between family members, especially husbands and wives.

The thing which is eluding me at the moment has to do with a special emphasis which the Recovering Grace website is placing on what they see to be a significant problem with the teaching on the tripartite view of man. Spirit, Soul and Body. Does anyone know why this teaching is problematic?

I also have read through the transcript of a conference call made with regard to Bill, in 1983 as well as transcript notes going back to 1971 and I can see no reference to this teaching or why it is problematic.

The reason I am asking is that I have been researching a number of other instances of very high profile brothers from a number of countries going back to the 1950's where this teaching has been raised as a fundamental doctrinal foundation upon which individual men are said to present a genuine behavioural and theological attitude which ends up being destructive. This includes top down authoritative structures, modelled on the patriarchal family model, an ability to disregard serious moral issues, independent and elitist decision making which ultimately harms others as well as other points.

Does anyone know why believing in Spirit, Soul and Body can be claimed to justify this effect? How does that distinction give rise to patriarchal and by de facto adoption, also effect and influence the churches as well?

What happened in the USA in the mid 70's or thereabouts which led to this very strong response to reject the principle of headship in the home, and the church in the sense of embracing political feminist views? How does Spirit, Soul and Body teachings link in with that embrace?

This is not my imagination at work. In researching a particular brother over the last few months I have found a surprising link back to the USA and especially theological colleges in the USA and adoption of this same criticism of this teaching in the natal country of origin.

Also I don't want to participate in a political gender discussion, whether sociologically informed or psychologically informed. From the perspective of the world such things are easily understood and justified without regard to consequences.

I see that one of the biggest concerns expressed over Bill Gothard was originally his lack of qualification to be a seminary teacher. To that criticism he went and got himself a PhD in 2005. This expression was made by theological professors as evidenced by their participation in historical attempts to remove Bill which go right back to 1971. It so happens that I have found evidence that this same process was started with other well known pastors and teachers around that same time in the USA, and all the accusations can be found in their case as well. Yet the one thing which seems to elude me is why this teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body keeps getting cited as a fundamental and important ingredient in explaining the overarching personal and spiritual lives of these men who are being dealt with in this way.

If no one can answer my question or else it seems to the moderators that it is an inappropriate question to ask please feel completely free to just ignore it. I could say that consistently over the past two years I have seen that some members almost always present a political position (as I understand it) when speaking about the problems of sin in the church, and especially sexual sin by pastors and elders. They have specifically opposed this teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body as well. What is the connection?



 2014/3/5 11:17









 Re:

Teachings of any man should be examined in the light of scripture without touching the man (teacher) or fear of reprisal from others. I don't think I have seen any of Gothard's teachings examined on SI, which is a curious thing to me.

However, the SI forum members have been diligent to examine the teachings of many others.

 2014/3/5 12:54
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Amrkelky,
You’ve raise many valid points. I wish I could sit down with you and share about these things. Here’s a few cursory comments:

Quote:
I understand the issue of overstating the role of authority in the family and from that extrapolating a legalistic position in which children and other family members can be dealt with in a less than gentle way. That aspect of the effect of Bill's teachings appears to be fairly easily understood. I think that also explains the response of some who emphasise equality between family members, especially husbands and wives.


I would say that the issue is not about “overstating” the role of authority, but of misusing a position of power. I see many responding to abuse of power by calling for “equality”, and in one sense I agree – if it’s about human value. After all, no people group can claim to have more value, no matter how much power they wield (see Matt. 18:1 1-2). But if this is over equality in power and privilege – well, in real life, that’s fictitious. There will always be those who wield more power and have the advantages to do so. Historically, males have had a lot more power advantages then women, and I believe that scripture simply acknowledges that – as it does the practice of slavery in the Roman world – or of dictatorship (Caesar). It’s not about power in itself, but how to live our lot in life. In Christ we can live Godly lives wherever we find ourselves on the power grid. In Christ a slave is a free man”; and the powerless have mighty power from above, etc.

Quote:
Does anyone know why believing in Spirit, Soul and Body can be claimed to justify this effect? How does that distinction give rise to patriarchal and by de facto adoption, also effect and influence the churches as well?


Here’s my take on this:

Tripartism is not biblical! It’s a worldly mindset of compartmentalizing our being. The biblical people did not do that. The “soul” was not considered an entity in itself, or lesser than the “spirit”. Whenever you have a faulty presupposition, then faulty teachings are bound to flow out of this.

Maybe someone else will take this from here…. as it applies to “Gothardism” and other teachings. It's worth exploring!

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2014/3/5 12:59Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

rdg,

You are absolutely right. So many times the women are given the shaft and the men are left with a mere slap on the wrist.

And...and...sometimes the woman gets pregnant and then the preacher will pressure her to abort and who will carry the burden of that guilt?? She will. If she carries the child to term the child will always serve as a reminder to her of her sin, or his if she was raped. And him?

In our church alliance when a pastor gets involved in immorality, his pastoral credentials are immediately revoked and he comes under the authority of others for redeeming. I also think he has disqualified himself forever from any leadership position. Stern? Not really. After all, once a person starts acting out his immoral fantasies you know they have ongoing for some time - it is not an incident where "Opps! I made a mistake" happened.

Bill, David and any other leaders are made with flesh and blood and if they sin God will not look the other way and let them off scot free just because they have been effective leaders - they will have to give account just like the least person among us. I used to say if preachers are super holy then I should have inherited some of that because my grandpa was a wonderful preacher. But I am here to tell you he needed a Savior just like anyone else. And so did his children and all his descendants.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2014/3/5 14:34Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
I also think he has disqualified himself forever from any leadership position. Stern?


Could this at times be an “over-caution” – influenced by the ones who were not authentic? Perhaps this is the very person who can help another to victory with a truly empathetic heart. The church is left deprived of a potential benefit; and the "sinner" is condemned to his past. Is that biblical?

Maybe church should run more like AA – and you wouldn’t have this problem.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2014/3/5 14:53Profile









 Re:

It seems very unlikely that anyone would disagree that we ought to test what we have heard. Pretty well everyone who teaches would agree with that surely? Otherwise they are simply running the risk of being completely ignored. I know that this is not the same as realising that many people may not test what they hear, especially if they are following a man. It was rather to say that those like Bill who have given their whole lives to their calling hold a sincere belief in what they teach and to that end support what they believe Scripturally. No one is perfect. I don't suppose anyone would really dare to claim they are. Again they would be ignored pretty soon if they did.

I have no intention of getting into Bill's teaching ministry and what he taught. My guess is that I would most likely agree with most all of it. But I don't really know that for certain. I do know that the more perfectly someone presents Scripture and their beliefs around the Scriptures, the less likely those who read their teachings are to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach them directly. Perhaps the Holy Spirit simply confirms for most people what others have wrestled over in a godly desire to serve God.

Perhaps Diane will allow me to quote her from March 2006 in a discussion on how to exercise wisdom in choosing ones marriage partner.

Quote:
I have the solution: The PARENTS should pick the spouses. After all, the parents have tons more maturity and insight than their offspring. Now, the next challenge is: How do we implement this? The closest I have heard of this in the Christian community is Bill Gothard. He did not believe in dating, and he believed that the parents should be consented and be considered the authorities in these matters. I think he has some valid, excellent teachings about marriage.

The only thing about Gothard, is that apparently wherever his seminars have been, there is a higher incidence of divorce. Perhaps that is the danger of presenting very high standards that just can't be met in real life. The pressure rises and snap!



That quote perfectly corresponds to what I posted when I said in my last post:

Quote:
I understand the issue of overstating the role of authority in the family and from that extrapolating a legalistic position in which children and other family members can be dealt with in a less than gentle way. That aspect of the effect of Bill's teachings appears to be fairly easily understood. I think that also explains the response of some who emphasise equality between family members, especially husbands and wives.



There is no way I am going to speak against what I would regard to be basic truths concerning authority, submission and obedience in these things. Regardless as to the consequences I don't think error can be avoided completely. Not the teacher, nor those who hear him.

My reason for making my last seemingly emollient post was not in any way whatsoever intended to get into debating Bill's ministry or teaching. It was believe it or not exactly what I said. I never cease to be surprised that when I am reasonable in my posts I am always taken to mean the very opposite to what I actually mean. It is no wonder I have to confine myself to straight speaking.

Which brings me to your point about separation of the teacher from the teaching. It cannot be done. I don't believe that it can be justified Scripturally. Bill isn't going to escape the consequences of teaching a straight line either. This isn't simply a matter of being more strictly judged hereafter by the Lord, it will also mean being judged here and now more strictly as well.

I believe that it is in this context that Bill and others like him, who have taken a biblical stance on the true meaning of family life as God Himself has presented it to us, are soft targets when it comes to things going wrong. What I cannot accept is that presenting true Godly and Biblical values of itself is where the fault lays. To me overemphasis is often a too narrow focus if we go too far in pressing even that which is true.

The fact that we can make our own mistakes and sin ourselves simply means that we will actually be hated by some of those we have taught. I know plenty of kids who have hated (emotional) their parents for a season. If the parents then stumble themselves the kids will fall even harder on them and they may even fall away for a short or long season of time. What are we going to do when this happens? Throw away the truth? Or will we keep on with the truth with tears and ask our children to forgive us because we have stumbled! If we do stumble and become angry with our kids what then? They simply feel justified. If we have really loved them from the beginning it ought not to last for long. But there are no guarantees as everyone who has grown up children knows.

In a society such as the USA and the UK this could even mean our children beginning to feel justified in holding us to account in ways which are unfathomable to most of the world, including many European countries as well.

With Bill the attacks started in 1971. That is a long time to bear with others who are offended because other members of our family are imperfect. I can't say much more than that. I am still trying to understand how the one teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body could possibly have any bearing on these things. No doubt the Lord will show me if I need to know.

As for separating the teacher from the teaching, it cannot be done. I know everyone wants it to be true and some even go to great lengths to insist on it. In the end if you teach it and you are sincere then you must also believe it. If you believe it you will live it. If you live it you will also set the very example in visibility of that which you have taught. If others hear it and see your example they will either walk faithfully or they will stumble. Either way it will be to your account.

I don't know what you mean about fear of reprisals from others, but it sounds like you don't want to be taken to task yourself. Anytime you want to take me to task please do it. I really will not be offended no matter how straight you are with me. But if I do start to poke the nest with a stick it is because I am trying to dislodge the serpents.

 2014/3/5 15:23









 Re:

Actually, amr, I believe some men's teachings are probably not to be discussed on SI, but I could be wrong and easily test that by discussing some of IBLP's teachings. However, there is so much material online regarding Gothardism, that I really don't have the inclination or the time to go over ground that has already been thoroughly worked. The senior folks here at SI who are intimately aware of Gothardism owe it to the Body of Christ to have exposed the severe errors in Gothardism and how they could affect an individual, families and the Body of Christ at large (and have). You are very new to it and reading from your posts, you are not even scratching the surface. Most of what you say, you are saying from a very uninformed position, diminishing the side of those who have been taken advantage of and strengthening (enabling) the other side, by your uninformed statements.

It is much more than the teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body. Please do some research first.

The reason I say examine the teaching without touching the teacher, is because I am keenly aware from observation that whenever someone on SI examines the teaching of a "beloved teacher", SI senior staff accuse you of slandering the teacher. If I am wrong, then I would invite SI to invite anyone (doesn't have to be me) to start a thread to examine IBLP Teachings.

I find that stance, incredulous and unproductive and a disservice to the Body of Christ and thinking, discerning individuals.

That is all I have time for now. Not being terse, just have an appointment to go to.

Blessings to you.

 2014/3/5 15:55





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