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The intent is good but what makes you think that the Pope does not already know Jesus as His Savior and Lord?

I personally think that the pope is going to get a warm and wonderful reception when he arrives in Heaven.

I praise God for bringing a Godly man into the papal office!

Do keep praying for him...


I wish that were true... but alas, it is not.

The pope is trusting the Catholic Church and Mary for his salvation. Not Jesus Christ. He does not believe in salvation by faith alone, but salvation by faith AND works.

"It is necessary to salvation that every man should submit to the Pope." (Boniface VIII Unum Sanctum, 1303.)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [b]not of yourselves[/b]: it is the gift of God: [b]Not of works[/b], lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8, 9.

Perhaps you've heard of the Council Of Trent? This current Pope, if he is still alive when you read this, has given this document his approval and has upheld it...

After you read this, I challenge you to tell me that he was a man of God. I wish he were, and I wish he was saved, but sadly, he is the leader of the largest false Christian religion in the world.

FOURTH SESSION: DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES: "If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts [the 66 books of the Bible plus 12 apocryphal books, being two of Paralipomenon, two of Esdras, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Sophonias, two of Macabees], as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA."

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that children, because they have not the act of believing, are not after having received baptism to be numbered among the faithful, and that for this reason are to be rebaptized when they have reached the years of discretion; or that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith of the Church alone, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 13).

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON CONFIRMATON: "If anyone says that the confirmation of those baptized is an empty ceremony and not a true and proper sacrament; or that of old it was nothing more than a sort of instruction, whereby those approaching adolescence gave an account of their faith to the Church, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Confirmation, Canon 1).

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 1).

THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 8).

FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that in the Catholic Church penance is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ the Lord for reconciling the faithful of God as often as they fall into sin after baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 1).

FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation; or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human contrivance, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 7).

FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that the confession of all sins as it is observed in the Church is impossible and is a human tradition to be abolished by pious people; or that each and all of the faithful of Christ or either sex are not bound thereto once a year in accordance with the constitution of the great Lateran Council, and that for this reason the faithful of Christ are to be persuaded not to confess during Lent, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 8).

FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that God always pardons the whole penalty together with the guilt and that the satisfaction of penitents is nothing else than the faith by which they perceive that Christ has satisfied for them, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 8).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that in the mass a true and real sacrifice is not offered to God; or that to be offered is nothing else than that Christ is given to us to eat, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 1).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that by those words, Do this for a commemoration of me, Christ did not institute the Apostles priests; or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer His own body and blood, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 2).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one; or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 3).

TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that it is a deception to celebrate masses in honor of the saints and in order to obtain their intercession with God, as the Church intends, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 5).

TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER: "If anyone says that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood, or that there is no power of consecrating and offering the true body and blood of the Lord and of forgiving and retaining sins, but only the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel; or that those who do not preach are not priests at all, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 1).

TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER: "If anyone says that the bishops who are chosen by the authority of the Roman pontiff are not true and legitimate bishops, but merely human deception, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 8).

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS OF SAINTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES: "The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching and have charge of the cura animarum, that in accordance with the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and with the unanimous teaching of the holy Fathers and the decrees of sacred councils, they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, that it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our redeemer and savior; and that they think impiously who deny that the saints who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven are to be invoked, or who assert that they do not pray for men, or that our invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry, or that it is opposed to the word of God and inconsistent with the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to pray vocally or mentally to those who reign in heaven."

 2005/4/1 14:27

Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153


Any respect I might have had for the pope as a "man of God" flew right out the window when I saw those widely-publicised pictures of him kissing the Koran.

 2005/4/1 14:53Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


after the death of this pope any day now given his condition, we will all have to hold onto God in the spirit like never before. After He dies there will be 1 or 2 more popes before the end of days begins in earnest. Be ye ready brethren.

Farai Bamu

 2005/4/1 17:28Profile

 Re: End Times - In the Words of Jesus Himself

Jesus also said in the same chapter that "this [that] generation would not pass until all these things be fulfilled".

I have heard two theories on this.

One, Christ was referring to that generation in His day and,

Two, He was referring to the generation in which these things would take place.

Christ didn't say that there would be an increase in earthquakes, only that there would be "earthquakes in divers places".

The only thing that He mentions abounding is iniquity.

There has been a whole lot a shaking going on since creation, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of earthquakes that occur everyday, some felt others are not.

But since I am apart of the preterist camp, that 'generation' is not our generation, but to His generation of His day.

I can't take into account only one item in the list of things that are in Matthew 24 but I must take in the whole because the partial must agree with the whole for it all to fit.

And Daniels 70 weeks fit into Christs' day and not in some other generation that is warped speed into the future. There is no gap in the timeline as which so many dooms day soothsayers are preaching today.

If God sent Israel into captivity to Babylon for 70 years and completed Jeremiah's prophecy and Daniel knew by the books of what the prophet said would happen and that Daniel knew that 70 years were about to expire, should we know by the books that the 70 weeks of Daniel is fulfilled?

Are we going to take heed to the command "to rebuild Jerusalem" by Cyrus the great, or are we going to listen to modern day preachers say that that prophecy is still future?

Nehamiah was given orders to rebuild Jerusalem in "troublesome times" as commanded by Cyrus, which commenced the 70 weeks to begin. Nehemiah had his troubles, read carefully his account. From that time to the Messiah would be these 70 sets of weeks. And if anyone on this forum can tell me from the bible that there is a gap in this 70 weeks and prove to me that this gap exists I will consider what you have to say and look into it further. I am not completely closed minded to new truth, if the truth bears witness with the whole.

Why do we think that our day is more troublesome then in years gone by? As history dictates, there have always been troublesome times. We have times of peace and times of war, times of countries breaking up and forming another. God says, "I tear down one kingdom and establish another".

"Nothing is new under the sun"

Is our day better then their day? Why do we place all the prophecies into the future, when Christ even said, "the law and the prophets were until John, after that the kingdom of God is preached".

Consider this that many believe is still in the future: Mal4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD".

Everybody has this shot into the future and waiting, but John the Baptist fulfilled it as Christ refers this passage to him: Matt 11

"13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

So if this is still future what is Christ talking about and why is he referring this to John?

The problem is it's connection to the "great and dreadful day of the LORD". We don't understand that, therefore we reject it being in the past and we throw it into the future. Anything we don't understand is either washed over or put some place into the future, by placing it there means that I don't have to think about it, hence; out of sight out of mind.

You see, we have done this to a lot of prophecies in our subconscience, placed there not by God, but by this generation of bible men who have stripped us from truth of the past.

Since we do not have sufficient information and understanding in these matters we leave it up to those who must know, instead of asking the only one who would know, "Father, is what I am believing the right thing to believe?" I ask this all the time with anything that doesn't sound right. And I am glad that He doesn't withold anything from those who walk uprightly.


 2005/4/1 20:03

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


Do you guys still love me?

no, I'm sulking coz y ou don't agree with me :-x :-(


Farai Bamu

 2005/4/1 21:32Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


I sent you a pm earlier, let me know if you got it Karl

Farai Bamu

 2005/4/2 0:15Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


and you don't have to reply if you don't feel like it

Farai Bamu

 2005/4/2 0:16Profile

Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153


Christ didn't say that there would be an increase in earthquakes, only that there would be "earthquakes in divers places".

And then you go on to point out the fact that hundreds of earthquakes happen every day around the world...most of them too small to be felt.


Now my question for you is this: Do you think Christ is an idiot? Do you think he did not understand what his disciples were asking him? Do you think that the God of heaven didn't already know that there were earthquakes happening everywhere?

What you suggest (that God didn't mean there'd be an Increase in earthquaked...) is akin to Jesus response to "what are the signs of the end times" is

[b][i]"There will be people breathing air and fish swimming in the these signs you will know that I am coming soon..."[/i][/b]

"Ummm...excuse me, Lord, but that's not a sign."

You understand that a SIGN is something [b][i]different[/b][/i] that points the way to a place or thing or event, right? I could not give you directions to my house and tell you to turn left when the street you are on is tar marked with white and yellow lines, since all of the roads to my house for dozens of miles around are tarred and painted. You would be lost in an instant...I gave you no sign at all, did I?

Surely Jesus, creator of the world knew the frequency of small, insignificant earthquakes all over his planet. He would [b]NOT[/b] have given earthquakes in divers places to us as a sign if he was not talking about an increase in tempo and intensity, otherwise what he said was pure idiocy.

And yes, I still love you. But don't be afraid to see the signs for what they are. Our world is so primed for the end it staggers me when I think about it. And I know people have been saying that for centuries but these were people who did not understand scripture fully. For one example, it is stated in prophecy that when the two witnesses lie dead in the street for three days...people from ALL OVER THE WORLD will see their bodies and rejoice.

When, in history, before the invention of television, the internet, radio, print, etc. was it possible for the planet to even KNOW of the two witnesses, let alone...[b]WITHIN THREE DAYS[/b] be able to see their corpses and rejoice?

Simple: That was [b][u]never[/b][/u] possible...before today.

When, in history would it ever have been possible for one may to so control commerce and the peoples of the world he could force them all to receive a mark for buying and selling? No Caesar in Rome certainly had that power, and even Hitler had he succeeded in his mad quest for world dominion could not have successfully exerted that kind of control on everyone. (technology restrictions, ya know)

Is it possible today?

Sure is...

God's getting all His ducks in a row and the [b][i]significant increase in earthquake intensity and strength around the world[/b][/i] coupled with the fact that we're the FIRST generation in history that can even know of 'earthquakes in divers places' is just one more ducky that is beautifully set up. :-)

 2005/4/2 10:30Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Views and questions

Hi Karl,

Now that we have had some discussion elsewhere and having a better idea in some regards of where you are coming from and where I misunderstood you...

Just a couple of things;

But as a preterist

That just sounds funny because it kind of boxes you in a bit there, along the lines of 'Calvinist', 'Baptist', 'Methodist'.

Only say that because I suspect there is much more to the depth within you that the Lord has worked of Himself than to be characterized narrowly. Taking these things into account and find there is much to brood on and glean from as in many things from all these theological constructs, challenging our thinking and presumptions...

What I find difficult is in end results and to be redundant again, what is the future to hold and what expectations are anticipated by looking through this particular lenses?

A lot of questions surface.

Is there still an expectation that Jesus Christ will once again walk physically on this earth again, this time once and for all time. Ruling and reigning where every knee will bow and every tongue confess?

Another is, have all the stars fallen out of the sky and the moon turned to red? Or is that seen only as symbolic?

What of the 'new' heaven and earth?

What of; "Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ?

There is a lot more that I find difficult to square with this particular pair of glasses and find it suspect because it keeps going back to the same problems discussed elsewhere; That we mere creatures truly have the mind of Christ in such development that we can begin to state we might have these things all figured out and even if we did, even the Son of Man stated [i]no one[/i] knows but the Father, the day of His return. That presupposes that He even will return and hence my puzzlement of this view, the suspicion is that He already has, back in the catch all hang up of "[i]this generation[/i]".

It also leads on to another batch of questions and the implications that I am trying to grasp and mentioned at the first. Where are we headed? Toward things getting better and better or worse and worse? It certainly [i]seems[/i] that the world and life on this planet is deteriorating, the inhabitants more closely aligned to 2 Tim 3 as we continue to be more and more self absorbed with ourselves, our comforts, materialism and the resources will likely run out (oil for instance) at some point.

Maybe I am just confused and am misstating it, would like to hear though the thoughts on these things and do correct me, it's been awhile since I mused on this, the way it is constructed.

Perhaps we could move this back to the other thread again where this first started coming about. Believe it was something on the order of a "Fairytale Revelation..." something like that.

Being this is addressing the issues of the Pope, would only state that it seems a slight possibility, but still has the ring of much speculation at best regarding the holder of that particular 'office' being [i]The[/i] anti-christ.
Could think of any number of possible 'candidates' but will spare that :-( .

Of course wouldn't buy into any of the thoughts of what the whole ideal of Popery became as they are want to contribute it primarily to a verse from Peter and the whole succession stemming forth out of that. Strange how a couple of verses can become whole theologies... "Predestination" another amongst many.

We can't [b]be[/b] Christians by aligning with a man, a point of view, a theological construct or anything else other than bringing our alignment into and under the lordship of Jesus Christ [i]alone[/i] and it has to happen from the inside out when He takes residence in our hearts, in our minds and our lives. Christ [b]in[/b] you, the hope of glory. We know that and sure it's preaching to the choir, but again you never know who is out there, checking in on us...

When it comes to most of all the end times speculation there is one word that comes to mind and I think Ron touched on it elsewhere in referring back to the first time the Lord came...


Mike Balog

 2005/4/2 11:32Profile

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37510
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


We should also pray that his sucessor who is most likely to be the last pope , if as we hope the Lord soon returns, a man of God and open

I do think that this will be the last pope, Nostradamus prophiesed that this would be a [b]dark[/b] pope, not that his words have that much credence its still intresting none the less. Also in alot of early protestant history writings there is alot of teaching about the pope being the antichrist.

I do think we have to pray for the pope but even more for the people of Roman Catholism! May there be a large exodus and coming to the saving faith of Jesus Christ alone apart from works!

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 2005/4/2 20:16Profile

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