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 Re:

Thanks for the links. I have also read the sermons we have here in print.

Yes indeed he preached holiness doctrine, and seems to have known many holiness folk in his time. But I don't find his sermons anointed.

A man who is walking without sin (and Ravenhill omits to mention in the ones I have read, whether he is/was walking in the blessing or not) has such power on him that sinners are convicted even just by the presence of the person, and believers are revived (receive the second blessing). I have never heard of this happening or any talk of revival although I am not saying that people my have been blessed by him. That is not the same thing.

I quote him:

Quote:
People say to me all over the country, "I am interested in revival." I say, "Yes, so are a million other Americans."

I find all kinds of people interested in it. I don't find many people burdened for it. People are very interested in revival, but we don't start to break the fallow ground. We don't prepare the way of the Lord.



So again why has not revival broken out wherever he preaches? Is he including himself in the 'we'?

But apart from this issue, he seems to not have the discernment expected for example he says:

Quote:
God is yet to produce the greatest men ever. I don’t believe that God went off production with Wesley, Finney, and George Whitfield. Fire begets fire. In my opinion, John Wesley caught something of his fiery zeal from George Whitefield. In this day some claim the revival, often called the Wesleyan Revival, was not Wesley's at all. Wesley picked up the revival torch that Whitefield dropped when he went to America.



Putting Wesley together with Whitefield is putting chalk with cheese. Whitefield opposed second blessing doctrine. I find this very common in people who seem to have the blessing but they don't otherwise they would know exactly who opposes the true gospel. It is not just an add on to it.

He also made a remark about it being a shame that a certain man's house was not bombed during the war. I am afraid that sentiments of that sort are not part of godliness.

No I am sorry but this man does not pass the muster and if he was asked if he does not sin. I would like to hear the reply. I am guessing he would say he had not reached that stage yet.

gators leading people to Christ does not denote a holiness preacher.

 2013/12/11 12:42
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

In the best pattern for prayer we have ever received, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to pray daily for our daily bread, and right after that He says to pray for forgiveness of our sins and then for deliverance from temptation-Matthew 6:9-13. That seems to clearly indicate that forgiveness of sins is needed daily just as much as daily bread and deliverance from temptation are daily necessities. So why would our Lord include asking for forgiveness of sins as a part of the pattern for daily prayer if He really expected us to be sinless even for one whole day? Doesn’t seem to line up.

Also, James 3:2 tells us that in many things we all offend. Matthew Henry's commentary on that verse may be helpful here,

"Were we to think more of our own mistakes and offenses, we should be less apt to judge other people. While we are severe against what we count offensive in others, we do not consider how much there is in us which is justly offensive to them. Self-justifiers are commonly self-deceivers. We are all guilty before God; and those who vaunt it over the frailties and infirmities of others little think how many things they offend in themselves. Nay, perhaps their magisterial deportment, and censorious tongues, may prove worse than any faults they condemn in others. Let us learn to be severe in judging ourselves, but charitable in our judgments of other people."

Truth be told, the only sinless Person that has ever walked this earth is Jesus Christ, the God-Man.

In passages such as 1 John 3:6-10 the idea is that a true believer does not live in or practice habitual, unrepentant sin, as we see in other passages like 1Cor. 6:9-10 and Gal. 5:19-21, passages that tell us that whoever makes a practice of sin will not inherit God’s kingdom.


_________________
Oracio

 2013/12/11 13:51Profile









 Re:

Oracio

I will respond to the Lords Prayer comments first.

When the Lord gave His followers this pattern of prayer, it was in the context of their spiritual state at that time. It was prior to the time that the church was formed and prior to the time that they were baptised by the Holy Spirit and therefore into the death and resurrection of Christ. In other words, before they were united and at one with Christ and we can see that by the way that they were not at one with another, always doubting and disputing who was the greatest. After Pentecost there was a profound change in them.

In the prayer that Jesus gave them, they were to pray for the kingdom to come and indeed it did come when they were united with Christ in His baptism. It was then that His will was done in them on earth as it was in heaven.

So whilst they awaited that time, they were in need of daily forgiveness, until the day that they would be delivered from evil, at Pentecost. In fact the prayer is a prayer for entire sanctification.

 2013/12/11 15:37
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

krautfrau, while I appreciate your effort in sharing your explanation on that I respectfully disagree with that interpretation. If that interpretation is correct it would mean that Jesus' teaching on prayer us not applicable for us today. Many today try to claim that Jesus teaching, including the Sermon on the Mount is not applicable for us today, which I believe is unbiblical and dangerous for us to assert.


_________________
Oracio

 2013/12/11 16:05Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Putting Wesley together with Whitefield is putting chalk with cheese. Whitefield opposed second blessing doctrine. I find this very common in people who seem to have the blessing but they don't otherwise they would know exactly who opposes the true gospel. It is not just an add on to it.



Sister, to be clear with you SermonIndex does not promote second blessing holiness doctrine and if anyone comes on the forums to promote 1 "ism" they hold above the rest then we ask them not to participate anymore in the forums.

As per the community rules:

3. HAVING A PERSONAL AGENDA - We look down on people who come with personal agenda's or are trying to justify themselves on a particular doctrine or emphasis. We believe it is not healthy to try and impose a truth that you have on many other brothers or sisters. This type of believer feels that a truth they have is more important then the rest and feels a godliness for holding to that truth. Such a godliness is false and will not bring about the fruits of the Spirit in the life of that believer (Galatians 5:22-23).

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13


So please do not continue to speak on this subject in the way are doing or you will be asked to move on from participation in the forums. It is a privildge we all have to speak openly on a public forum along aside so many great godly men from the past. We must be more teachable and realize that we all need to grow in grace and can learn from many if not all the sermons here. To have a ministry to critize messages and speakers is fruitless and will not do anything except mar the name of Christ and the testimony of the Lord.


2. BEING TEACHABLE - Being teachable is another guiding principle that we ask would be something we would all desire to cultivate. To have this humility with the apostle paul who in a humble attitude was seeking for maturity in the Christian walk yet would not judge his brothers for other opinions and teachings (Philippians 3:15). We can learn from even the weakest amongst us for each one of us has some truth, some practice that they understand or have a better revelation then we do. Therefore we must continually humble ourselves to learn from even the babes in Christ. This glorifies God and brings unity to the body (1 Corinthians 12:21-23).

from: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2013/12/11 16:12Profile
beekpr
Member



Joined: 2011/7/12
Posts: 83


 Re: Revival Forum Interview with Leonard Ravenhill

I marvel how God can use one of His dear servants like Leonard Ravenhill to bless people indirectly through the years - even after they are gone. A certain brother from the denomination of which I am a part went to hear Ravenhill preach years ago. It resulted in this man making a commitment to prayer which he has kept to this day. By two separate direct answers to prayer (one of his and one of mine) we became close friends even though we live miles apart. He has been a spiritual mentor to me. We still communicate frequently by phone to share prayer concerns with one another. Within the past few years I heard two anointed preachers (both do evangelistic work) only to discover that they were under the umbrella of my dear friend's prayers. God be thanked that Bro. Ravenhill's legacy lives on to draw people like myself to a deeper commitment to Christ!

 2013/12/11 21:08Profile









 Re:

Greg brother

I am rather confused about what you want. I have to ask you to be more specific with the behaviour you say you are not happy with as you seem to allow it from others.

I do have an agenda, if you can call it that, and that is, I desire to see revival and the type of revival that changes whole communities. As a sizeable number of its proponents have writings and sermons you promote here including Duncan Campbell, T Austin Sparks, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, L Brengle, Beverly Carradine, Charles Finney, George Fox, Oswald Chambers and Asa Mahan to mention only some, whom I admire and have studied extensively, I would have thought that you would not object to someone coming from the same stable as it were, or that you would not expect that their followers would be attracted to participate where their teachings are promoted.

You also promote many men who actively opposed the teaching that these men promoted, so it seems a little strange for you to object to this being pointed out. One side must be right, I hope you see. So perhaps you can be clear regarding your wish that the teachings of the men you promote not to be the subject of any discussion if that is an issue with you? I am rather confused by this on an open discussion forum as opposed to a cult. Also the ones here who oppose the teaching of the men mentioned, and believers here, yet are not considered as coming here with an agenda (against second blessing holiness).

As far as someone feeling a godliness in holding a truth, I feel far from that. In fact I feel that I am the worst of sinners for not being unable to sustain that most blessed of states which is at odds with your assessment. There are those who strongly oppose this teaching, and they have often been very rude to me, and downright nasty in some of their posts, but I do not react to that nor do I report them. I am without fail, polite towards them and answer their accusations, the latest of which has been to imply that I am lying in my testimony, but you never seem to object to their posts. The worst culprit has now left, but he was allowed to be as nasty and as threatening as he wished and broke the regulations right left and centre, even though many objected to his threatening demeanour and manner yet you allowed that. I have to wonder whether the atmosphere you desire here is furthered by administration not applying the regulations to all.

On being teachable, I am a student of theology at present with some very wonderful evangelical university lectures and do learn from those on the forum so I am beat at trying to understand what you mean. As a matter of fact, I do not see the sort of posting behaviour which you are demanding from others and especially not when they post in opposition to me.

It seems like you are saying that I am not teachable because I will not change my views to the opposing party, yet you promote men who held my views which is a bit confusing,

I have been here for a long time Greg, and appreciate the resources and did not come here with any of the intentions you are accusing me of though I do not have the time I had in the past to post on various subjects so perhaps you are confused in thinking that I am here to promote one doctrine? I have no reason to do so, no church to promote, no books to sell, only a burning desire for holiness which is shared with others here who also believe in second blessing holiness. So I ask you to please clear up the misunderstandings I have mentioned.

 2013/12/12 4:53









 Re:

Oracio

I agree with you that Jesus' teaching in the Lords Prayer is applicable today and any time in the future regarding those who like the disciples have not yet entered into the kingdom and absolutely agree that saying that the Sermon on the Mount is not applicable today is dangerous.

Quote:
Also, James 3:2 tells us that in many things we all offend. Matthew Henry's commentary on that verse may be helpful here,

"Were we to think more of our own mistakes and offenses, we should be less apt to judge other people. While we are severe against what we count offensive in others, we do not consider how much there is in us which is justly offensive to them. Self-justifiers are commonly self-deceivers. We are all guilty before God; and those who vaunt it over the frailties and infirmities of others little think how many things they offend in themselves. Nay, perhaps their magisterial deportment, and censorious tongues, may prove worse than any faults they condemn in others. Let us learn to be severe in judging ourselves, but charitable in our judgments of other people."



Brother, the verse actually says that in many things we offend all, not we all offend. Jesus offended many but that was not because He was not perfect. He continues the verses to point out that the perfected are able to bridle their tongues and says

"If any man among you seem to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is in vain" James 1:26

Paul was not using 'we' in the way you say. He often said 'we' when but was not including himself as an expression of speech.

 2013/12/12 4:55
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: SermonIndex does not promote second blessing holiness doctrine.

Greg maybe you don’t promote ‘second blessing holiness’ but God certainly used a testimony of Duncan’s Campbell’s from this website to open me up to hope that I can live a pure Godly life, not in my own strength by through a second encounter with the Holy Spirit.

Second blessing holiness is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - I find that the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is promoted in the churches today is far different than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. The baptism of today only seems to encourage and strength the flesh, while the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 purified the heart, cleansed it from sin and nailed the believer to the cross, so that Christ could be fully formed in us – that is what Second blessing holiness in a nut shell.

Now you may stumble at the words being used ‘second blessing holiness’ or ‘entire sanctification’ or ‘Christian perfection’ but all that this teachings promotes is sanctification by faith in Christ, so that we can live a Holy, Pure and Christ-like life and to be honest, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t want to promote that. I was going to write I strongly believe but I am going to change that to – I know that this teaching and experience will be promoted in the next Move of God (Revival) and if you could only see it, it’s starting on this site.

Quote: So please do not continue to speak on this subject in the way are doing or you will be asked to move on from participation in the forums.

Please explain what you mean, as if you’re asking Brenda not to speak on this subject then you’re asking me also not to speak not on this subject as well. I ask you to prayerfully respond to this request as I don’t want you to jeopardize the possibility of this site and you not being used in the coming move of God. Please don’t be like Andrew Murray who took offence when revival was about to burst forth and cried ‘people silence’ - ‘People, I am your minister, sent from God! Silence!’


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/12/12 10:24Profile









 Re:

Sermon Index does not promote Calvinism. Yet there are Calvinistic sermons from Calvinistic preachers in the archives. We can benefit from their insights. Yet the moderators and guidelines specify that Cal/Arm discussions not be initiated as such discussions can be divisive.

Greg as, moderator of this forum, has asked that one not come into this sphere promoting their own "ism". Whether is be Calvinism, Arminianism, Perfectionism, Charisnsticism, or any other "ism". I like what E. V. Hill once said. The best "ism" was an "ism" that was a "warm".

Let us respect the authority of the moderator and make our "isms" be "wasms". And focus on Jesus.

My council.

Bearmaster.

 2013/12/12 11:05





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