Poster | Thread | ADisciple Member
Joined: 2007/2/3 Posts: 835 Alberta, Canada
| Re: | | "If I were a cessionist, which I am not, I would be hard pressed to use 1 Cor.13:8-9 to establish the ceasing of sign gifts."
Neither am I, and neither would I.
The gifts and ministries of the Spirit are God's provision to help us in our pursuit of love. "Follow after (pursue) love, and desire spiritual gifts..."
But once we come into love, the gifts and ministries are no longer needed.
Brenda, you are right that 1 Corinthians 13 encourages us to "go on to the rest." Which is, love. Meanwhile we are urged to "follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts..."
Once we come into love, then, the gifts are no longer needed. "Love never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (ie, be unemployed); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (be done away because no longer needed)."
So those who insist the gifts have ceased, well, I suggest an honest read of 1 Corinthians 13, and other passages of Scripture which speak of God's end for us-- love. Are we there yet? :)
_________________ Allan Halton
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| 2013/11/30 14:43 | Profile | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Quote:
ADisciple wrote: But once we come into love, the gifts and ministries are no longer needed. Once we come into love, then, the gifts are no longer needed.
Are you saying that since no one operates in love or perfect love, this is why we still need the gifts in operation? And if and when we do, the gifts will cease? If so, that’s a whole new take that I've never heard before!!
I’m not saying that I am 100% correct but I believe that it’s no mistake that chapter 13, “the chapter love” is sandwiched in between the both chapters on spiritual gifts. In order to properly use the gifts, WE NEED TO OPERATE IN LOVE because without it all this crazy stuff that has brought on the Strange Fire conference is exactly what we get.
That’s just my humble take on it and I know not many may agree and that’s ok!! We’re all striving to hear the same sentence, “enter in thou good and faithful servant!”
God bless, Lisa _________________ Lisa
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| 2013/11/30 15:31 | Profile |
| Re: A Duscipke | | Brother, respectfully, 1 Cor. 13:8-13 is teaching that the perfect will occur when Christ returns. When Jesus returns and the church is in her perfect state then tongues, prophesy, and knowledge will pass away as well as the rest if the spiritual gifts for we will behold the perfect Christ. Even faith and hope that Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 13:13.will pass away as faith and hope are realized in Jesus. His love will remain as His visible wounds will be constant reminders of our redemption.
In 1 Cor.1:7 Paul tells the Corithians that they are not lacking in any gift as they are awaiting eagerly the revelation if Jesus Christ. Tbis presupposes that all if the spiritual gifts will be around until Jesus returns.
On Eph. 4:7-16 Paul writes that the gifts of apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist will be in operation until the church attains the unity of the faith and grows in its knowkedge of the Son of God. Certainly something that will not happen until Christ returns.
Conclusion. All if the gifts if the Holy Spirit will be in operation until the return if Jesus.
Bearmaster. |
| 2013/11/30 15:35 | |
| Re: Lysa | | Dear sister I am one of the few who do AGREE with you.
Bear. |
| 2013/11/30 15:40 | | ADisciple Member
Joined: 2007/2/3 Posts: 835 Alberta, Canada
| Re: | | Lysa said, "Are you saying that since no one operates in love or perfect love, this is why we still need the gifts in operation? And if and when we do, the gifts will cease?"
Yes, this is how I read 1 Cor. 13. Paul urges the desire for, and orderly use of, the gifts, showing that when we come into love, these are no longer necessary.
If this seems wrong it can only be because we don't comprehend love yet. For example, why would a person want to continue using a flashlight when the sun has come up? The Son of God did not operate in the realm of the gifts of the Spirit. He operated in the realm of love.
But this does not mean that while the gifts are still in operation it is because there is no love. Hopefully we are pursuing love all along the way, as Paul urged us to. You are right in saying that it is the absence of this that accounts for so much of the foolishness we've seen in the Charismatic realm.
I am not sure we really understand the implications of the fruit of the Spirit, which is "love..." I think when the love of Christ is more fully formed in the "branches," we are going to see far more powerful healings and deliverances and works of power than were ever accomplished by the gifts of the Spirit. _________________ Allan Halton
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| 2013/11/30 16:00 | Profile | ADisciple Member
Joined: 2007/2/3 Posts: 835 Alberta, Canada
| Re: | | Bear said, "Brother, respectfully, 1 Cor. 13:8-13 is teaching that the perfect will occur when Christ returns. When Jesus returns and the church is in her perfect state..."
Bear, when I prayerfully read the passage starting at 1 Cor. 12.31 to 1 Cor. 14.1, it's difficult for me to see that he is talking of anything but Love when he says, "when that which is perfect is come."
I think we tend to relegate way too much to "when Jesus returns."
The apostles-- Paul, Peter, John-- teach that the church is to come into perfect love before Jesus returns. In addition to the above passage I mentioned, please read Eph. 3:14-21, 2 Pt. 1:5-11, and 1 Jn. 4:17,18).
_________________ Allan Halton
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| 2013/11/30 16:11 | Profile | rnieman Member
Joined: 2008/10/24 Posts: 146
| | 2013/11/30 16:48 | Profile |
| Re: A Disciple | | Brother if you are going to reason that tongues, prophesy, and knowledge will be done away with when perfect move is realized thus side of glory. Then yiu will have to throw out 1 Cor. 1:7 and Eph.4:7-16. These verses imply that spiritual gifts will be around when Christ returns.
Also the question arises why the directives given in 1 Cor. 14 over the use of tongues and prophesy. To follow your reasoning one would suppose that the Corithians or anyone else had not been perfected in love.
Also in 1 Cor 14:1, Paul tells the Corithians to pursue love, but to desire earnestly spiritual gifts. Especially the gift of prophesy. Also in 1 Cor.14:39 Paul says desire earnestly to prophesy but do not forbid anyone to speak in tongues.
Brother something else comes to mind. Was Paul perfected in love. Because he says in 1 Cor.14:18 he says I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all.
But trying to be argumentative bro. But showing your position on perfect love begs some questions. Will look over the verses you posted. Must stand down now
Bear:) |
| 2013/11/30 17:48 | | ADisciple Member
Joined: 2007/2/3 Posts: 835 Alberta, Canada
| Re: | | Bear said, "Will look over the verses you posted."
Yes, have a look at those passages. Like yourself, I have no interest in being argumentative. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.
By the way, there's an interesting little word in one of the passages you referred to-- Eph. 4:7-16. Paul says God has given gifts of men-- apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers--"TILL... we all come... unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..."
Meaning that when the body of Christ comes to full maturity (which is nothing less than the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ) these ministries are no longer necessary.
Edit: That would be better said like this: Meaning that when the ministries have equipped the body of Christ to edify itself in love, it is a process that results in a perfect (fully mature, full-grown) Man, and the ministries are no longer necessary.
_________________ Allan Halton
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| 2013/11/30 18:12 | Profile | AbideinHim Member
Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | | The brother's teachings were balanced, and he brought forth the teaching with the right spirit, desiring to see unity between Charismatics and non charismatics.
Although John MacArthur does seem to recognize strange fire to a certain extent, with all of his bible knowledge, he lacks discernment in knowing what the true fire of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees prided themselves on their knowledge of the law yet accused Jesus of doing the miraculous works that he did by the power of satan. Much of the Cessationist teaching has led It's followers to come to the same conclusion.
Mike _________________ Mike
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| 2013/11/30 20:32 | Profile |
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