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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Zac Poonen on - Calvinism, Arminianism, Election, Predestination, Purification

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 Zac Poonen on - Calvinism, Arminianism, Election, Predestination, Purification

Part 1 10 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpHl7pEl4tw

Part 2 10 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCuvPdKRqLs

"predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ"
not
"predestined to go to heaven or hell"

these blessed me, hope they will bless you too

Noah

 2013/11/2 14:24
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re: Zac Poonen on - Calvinism, Arminianism, Election, Predestination, Purification

Hi NoahJD,

Although I highly respect and love brother Poonen, I have to disagree with the logic being presented. "Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" doesn't seem to really have much of a difference with "predestined to go to heaven or hell". It is only those who have truly been saved, as in indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who will be (and are being) conformed to the image of Christ. They are two sides of the same coin. So regardless of what one feels about predestination vs. freewill, the way the verse is being interpreted and the logic underlying the interpretation in my opinion is not satisfactory to make such a strong argument.

Also, as a side note, I once read George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley in discussing the matter of predestination vs freewill which I thought was incredibly informative and clear which I would highly recommend if you are interested. Regardless of what view one takes, it is important to fully and clearly understand the issue, in this case, to fully understand the predestination side's logic and reasoning to make a more informed and educated assessment: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm


_________________
Will

 2013/11/2 18:26Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:
"Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" doesn't seem to really have much of a difference with "predestined to go to heaven or hell". It"



There is a world of difference. Going to heaven because of being confirmed to the image of Christ is like a bonus gift that comes with buying certain things. For example if you buy a car you get a cell phone free. It is just a bonus, it cannot become a product by itself. No dumb person will buy the car just because he wants to use the phone. But today in Christians accept Christ just for the sake of going to heaven. There is nothing wrong if they develop a strong desire to confirm to the image of Christ soon after coming to Jesus. The problem is because they believe in erroneous doctrines that they are going to get the bonus even if they do not buy the car they will finally get nothing, not because of their doctrinal differences but because they never seeked to buy the car.


_________________
Sreeram

 2013/11/2 22:41Profile









 Re:

peace to you tbsounde2:

The widespread idea of "being predestined to heaven" leads to a wrong way of thinking, according to Poonen, rather than focusing on where the scripture focuses, i.e.: "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ"

also note that Poonen states that "no where in scripture does it say we are predestined to heaven"

reforming a view may not help you, who have the right thinking about the Kingdom, but when taught to others (babes, unbelievers) they may get the wrong focus

blessings to you all

 2013/11/2 23:13
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067


 Re: Glory



Quote from NoahJD,

"Poonen states that "no where in scripture does it say we are predestined to heaven.""

Romans 8:30 Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:30 states, "...them he also glorified." The glorified state is no less than Heaven. The past tense, regarding all these things which God has done for the subjects spoken of in the context of these verses(28-39),is used rather than the present tense.

From Robertson's Word Pictures - Glorified (edoxasen). All first aorist active indicatives of common verbs (kaleō, dikaioō, doxazō). But the glorification is stated as already consummated (constative aorists, all of them), though still in the future in the fullest sense. “The step implied in edoxasen is both complete and certain in the Divine counsels” (Sanday and Headlam).

And the promise from Jesus Himself is...

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3
(Here in John, "...my Father's house..." is no less than Heaven).

And again in different terms,

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Luke 12:32
(Here in Luke,"...the Kingdom" is no less than Heaven).

In other terms,it is no less than Heaven which is the saints inheritance -

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. Ephesians 1:11,14,18.


For this ye know, that no lewd, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5

Giving thanks to the Father, who hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Knowing that from the Lord ye will receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. Colossians 1:12,3:24.

And finally,

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in Heaven for you the ones in the power of God being guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:1-5
(Note "inheritance" and "Heaven" which are used in verse 4).

Simply stated - NO PREDESTINATION NO SALVATION!

Heaven is full due to predestination.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken from the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:21-23

 2013/11/3 6:04Profile









 Re:

I think Poonen makes great points.

The whole idea he is getting across is that we are on a journey to be like Christ. a humble faithful merciful loving holy person is the goal. if heaven were the goal people may mistake the focus and in the end may not actually get into heaven.

enough said?

 2013/11/3 11:47
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Savannah you wrote:

“Romans 8:30 Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:30 states, "...them he also glorified." The glorified state is no less than Heaven. The past tense, regarding all these things which God has done for the subjects spoken of in the context of these verses(28-39),is used rather than the present tense.

From Robertson's Word Pictures - Glorified (edoxasen). All first aorist active indicatives of common verbs (kaleō, dikaioō, doxazō). But the glorification is stated as already consummated (constative aorists, all of them), though still in the future in the fullest sense. “The step implied in edoxasen is both complete and certain in the Divine counsels” (Sanday and Headlam).”

Unfortunately all the verb tenses are in the Aorist Indicative Active tense that indicate an action performed in the past, not the present. This would make the “glorified” portion of the verse indicate that this happened in the past, if this was speaking to living saints, then they would be completely free of all sin. The object of the predestination in 28-30 is conformity into the image of Christ.

Additionally could you further shed light on where specifically it’s taught in the verses you quoted (John 14:1-3, Luke 12:32, Ephesians 1:11,14,18, etc.) and in the context in which they were written, teach predestination of individuals unto salvation?

Blessings,
Russ

 2013/11/3 14:05Profile





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