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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Submission to Government

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 Re:

proudpapa writes.......

"Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

I am not implying that papa, I am saying that. The freedom of religion that you enjoy today was given to you by men and one day, relatively soon, men will take that away from you. The freedom that I found at Calvary was given to me by Jesus and no man can take it from me. When I was born again I was born a free man, free in Christ to share the Gospel anywhere in the world under any conditions, now I may pay a human price for that, but in the Kingdom of God, the kingdom to which saints belong, I am already dead to this world and so no matter what it does to me, it cannot take my freedom from me............bro Frank

 2013/10/13 23:42
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi appolus

pp asked : "Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

appolus replied : ///I am not implying that papa,...///

than are you agreeing that the political (religious) freedoms enjoyed in America are of God ?

Edit add : I ask again "Does your doctrine's cause you to speak evil of the minister for its usage of the sword ?"

 2013/10/13 23:50Profile









 Re:

Here is what I actually said

"I am not implying that papa, I am saying that." Then I went on to explain what freedom was actually given by God and how it cannot be taken away............bro Frank

 2013/10/13 23:58









 Re:

 2013/10/14 0:07
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

(((((Edit add : I will leave this post up, but I believe that I may have misunderstood appolus post and so I re posted another post in response above just-in's post)))))




Hi appolus

appolus wrote /// Here is what I actually said
"I am not implying that papa, I am saying that." Then I went on to explain what freedom was actually given by God and how it cannot be taken away............bro Frank///

You are switching topics inorder to avoid answering the question.

Being thankful to God for our physical religious politcal freedoms is not denying or replacing the true freedom that is in Christ Jesus, as it feels that you are trying to assert.

My question to you was "Are you implying that the religious (political) freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

 2013/10/14 0:08Profile









 Re:

In the OT, Israel was commanded by God to drive all their enemies out of the land that was given them by God.

In the NT, the Holy Spirit reveals who our Enemy really is in Ephesians 6.

We then have the example of the Early Church as they were led by the Holy Spirit to walk as Jesus walked.

The Early Church had a great history and great men upon which to draw inspiration and patriotism from. They have a heritage of brave men and women in the OT who stood up to overwhelming forces and conquered them with the help of God. Did the Early Church take pride in their heritage seeking to continue it? Did they have great and lofty plans to overthrow the uncircumcised Romans from Israel, living up to their heritage or did they die to that and everything else in this world when they exchanged their life for His, at Calvary?

Did they not see what their true heritage was (the City of God) and realize that their warfare now was no longer against earthly captors and oppressors?

Or did the Early Church abandon Israel and it's "freedom fighters"?

It seems that there are different thoughts in this thread.

I am thankful for peace and freedom. Of course, who would not be thankful for that.

 2013/10/14 0:10
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi appolus

pp wrote : Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God

appolus wrote : ///I am not implying that papa, I am saying that.///

Am I understanding you correctly now ?

Are you saying that you are not "implying" but rather that you are "saying" or stating in confidence : "that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?







 2013/10/14 0:23Profile









 Re:

What would Christianity look like today if the Early Church used carnal. military weapons to overcome Rome?

If John, Paul and Peter were Generals in a Christian based military, would Israel be Jewish today or "Christian"? Would Paul have gone on so many missionary journeys? Why did God bring persecution to the Early Church? Was it to scatter them from Jerusalem?

Where would the Church be today if the Vaudois, Albigenses, Anabaptists,etc, etc, took a military stance against oppressors in their land?

Would there even be a church today, undefiled and pure, if the Early Church thought they should continue to battle as their ancestors did?

 2013/10/14 1:34
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi just-in

just-in wrote : ////What would Christianity look like today if the Early Church used carnal. military weapons to overcome Rome?
If John, Paul and Peter were Generals in a Christian based military, would Israel be Jewish today or Christian? Would Paul have gone on so many missionary journeys? Why did God bring persecution to the Early Church? Was it to scatter them from Jerusalem?
Where would the Church be today if the Vaudois, Albigenses, Anabaptists,etc, etc, took a military stance against oppressors in their land?
Would there even be a church today, if the Early Church thought they should continue to battle as their ancestors did? ////

I am not sure whom you are replying to, But I just want to make it clear that I am not at all advocating Christians fighting in the battle-field, yet at the same time I am not going to judge those whom have.

Rather or not, the New Testament teaches permissibility for Christian soldiers to hold a combatant status comes down to biblical translation of the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" if it means to (do violence to) than the excemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" that was in the old testament for the battle field has been overturned.

If the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" means (to extort from one by intimidation money or other property) than we have no text in the New Testament that over throws the exemption clause of the battle field.

I am a believer that God with his Sovereign hand inspired the very words of the KJV for the english speaking people of our generation, so because of this I must concede that my understanding is that soldiers whom are Christians are to "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages."

But this is a personal understanding, and not one that I am going to infringe my judgement on others, such as the Christian soldier that risked and even lost their lives believing that he was defending us from Nazi tyranny.

It is not as cut and dry as some would have us to believe, "Thou Shalt not Kill" was one of the 10 commandments, I have heard many times that commandmant to be used as a proof text for Pacifism,
But that is misleading to say that the Old Testament "Thou Shalt not Kill" included the soldier in the battle-field because we are well aware that their was an excemption clause for that commandment in the Old Testament, rather or not that exemption clause has been overthrown in the New comes down to as I said : how we translate "Diaseio" "diaseivw"

 2013/10/14 7:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I am not sure whom you are replying to, But I just want to make it clear that I am not at all advocating Christians fighting in the battle-field, yet at the same time I am not going to judge those whom have.



Hi proudpapa,

I was not directing this to you just throwing it out because I think this is a very relevant conversation for the day that we are living in. I was hoping that Solomon would still be joining in on the conversation because I would find it interesting to know his thoughts on the subject. In particular, I would like to know Solomon's thoughts regarding the Early Church and if he thinks they should have engaged in carnal battle for the independence of Israel and what he thinks of the Early Church because THEY DID NOT engage in a fight for INDEPENDENCE? His thoughts will shed some light on how he thinks the Church should act today.

Quote:
Rather or not, the New Testament teaches permissibility for Christian soldiers to hold a combatant status comes down to biblical translation of the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" if it means to (do violence to) than the exemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" that was in the old testament for the battle field has been overturned.

If the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" means (to extort from one by intimidation money or other property) then we have no text in the New Testament that over throws the exemption clause of the battle field.

I am a believer that God with his Sovereign hand inspired the very words of the KJV for the english speaking people of our generation, so because of this I must concede that my understanding is that soldiers whom are Christians are to "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages."



This is my understanding, too. And John the Baptist said this while living in OT times (before the death and resurrection of Jesus).

Quote:
But this is a personal understanding, and not one that I am going to infringe my judgement on others, such as the Christian soldier that risked and even lost their lives believing that he was defending us from Nazi tyranny.

It is not as cut and dry as some would have us to believe, "Thou Shalt not Kill" was one of the 10 commandments, I have heard many times that commandmant to be used as a proof text for Pacifism, but that is misleading to say that the Old Testament "Thou Shalt not Kill" included the soldier in the battle-field because we are well aware that there was an excemption clause for that commandment in the Old Testament, rather or not that exemption clause has been overthrown in the New comes down to as I said : how we translate "Diaseio" "diaseivw"



I think it is important to look at the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Apostle's teachings to see if 1) they knew of any exemption clause given them by Jesus Christ and 2) if they used it.

This conversation is very worthwhile because it has deep impact and ramifications for all of us living in America especially (as I said) for the times we are living in. Let's keep the conversation going in a spirit of brotherly kindness (thank you and Apollus for doing that).

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 2013/10/14 8:54





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