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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Record Number of Americans Believe Government Too Powerful

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 Re:

Collin as I understand John Knox carried two swords. One was a broad sword on his back and s Bible at his side. Very prophetic as he held to the two arm theory propagated st the time. Church and state were separate. But separate arms of God. The established Reformed church taught the moral commands of God as rooted essentially in tbe law of Moses. The government enforced the moral commands as taught by the church. Mainly at the point if a sword. And I don't mean the sword off the Spirit.

It should be noted that John Knox was influeneced by John Calvin. Calvin believed in a church state society as evedenced by Geneva Switzerland. Knox spent tine in Geneva and said it was the vest place for Protestants. I night add Geneva was not a healthy place for Anabaptis but then very few places in Europe were.

Bearmaster.

 2013/9/28 12:32
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 William Penn

I think William Penn is an excelant example of a man whom reliezed and imbraced, That Gods kingdom is not of this world, and at the same time : he was very active and involved in promoting a political system of 'free and fair trials by jury, freedom of religion, freedom from unjust imprisonment and free elections.'


"Although Penn's authority over the colony was officially subject only to that of the king, through his Frame of Government he implemented a democratic system with full freedom of religion, fair trials, elected representatives of the people in power, and a separation of powers — again ideas that would later form the basis of the American constitution. The freedom of religion in Pennsylvania (complete freedom of religion for everybody who believed in God) brought not only English, Welsh, German and Dutch Quakers to the colony, but also Huguenots (French Protestants), Mennonites, Amish, and Lutherans from Catholic German states"

http://www.ushistory.org/penn/bio.htm







 2013/9/28 12:37Profile









 Re:

I must ask the question that was asked earlier in this thread. Where are New Testament examples found of Christians getting involved in government. That is first century Christians seeking to subvert Ronan government to Christ with the carnal weapons of man.

The New Testament Christians were only interested in proclaiming the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There message was repentence to God and faith in Jesus Christ. There was no call to political action to subjugate the Roman government to the kingdom if Christ by ttemporal carnal means.

The gospel message was a radical message that gave rise to a changed heart through faith in Jesus Christ. The early Christians saw themselves as citizens of a heavenly kingdom. They lived out their political citizenship by submitting to Caesar, paying their faxes, and praying fir the general welfare and salvation of governmental leaders. It was only when Rome required an oath of allegiance to Ceasar as god the Christians said kbiw and were prsecuted.

I might add that one would not find the Roman eagle displayed in a house church. This was unthinkable to the early church. Far cry from the American flag prominantly dispayed in our 501c3 churches today.

Bearmaster.

 2013/9/28 12:51









 Re:

PP, I think Ann Hutchison and Roger Williams are two other examples to shed light on this discussion.

Bear.

 2013/9/28 13:16
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi bear

good disscussion, One that I wrestle with oft within myself, you bring up many good points.


Bear wrote : ///PP, I think Ann Hutchison and Roger Williams are two other examples to shed light on this discussion.
Bear///

Lets not miss sterotype my position, their is a Big difference in William Penns 'desire for a political system of 'free and fair trials by jury, freedom of religion, freedom from unjust imprisonment and free elections.'
with that of Calvin and the puritians usage of the sword inorder to conform people to Christendome.

Bear asked a good question : /// Where are New Testament examples found of Christians getting involved in government.///

Where in the New Testament is the Centerion or the soldier or any one else within the government asked or even led to step down from their position in order to be a Christian ?

The question is asked in Scripture by the Soldiers what they should do. here is what the NASB says that Johns answer was : “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

It feels from many comments on these threads that some believe that they are more Spirtual and less fleshly than other born again believers because they doctrinaly believe that Christians should not be concerned with 'free and fair trials by jury, freedom of religion, freedom from unjust imprisonment and free elections.

are we more Spirtual and less fleshly than William Penn ?





 2013/9/28 13:41Profile









 Re:

Good points Bear, not only Ann Hutchison but Mary Dyer. Many on this forum would not have survived in the colonies.

Proudpapa , your argument is from silence. You cannot argue that since someone was not told not to do something therefore their life-styles must be approved. The centurion was not told that he must be born again or baptized, does that mean we dont have to be born again or baptized? You see how arguments from silence do not work ?

Again, there are no NT examples of teaching us to be involved in these activities, quite the opposite.........bro Frank

ps and lets rememeber, this is John the Baptist speaking to people who had not heard the teachings of Jesus, not been baptized in the Holy Spirit, not heard the sermon on the mount and so on, all of this is prior to the death and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

 2013/9/28 14:04
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

The hypocricy that I have found myself in on this subject is that on the one hand it seems that we (I) think that we (I) are to Spirtual minded to vote on the other hand we are quick to complain and murmur when we think that our own like Ken Miller is being done wrong by our system.

I did not vote in the last two elections, and I was quick to judge those whom did vote as less Spirtual as to myself.

 2013/9/28 14:08Profile









 Re:

I personally have not complained about Ken Miller proudpapa. We should act as God leads us then embrace whatever situation that we find ourselves in for Gods sake. The Apostles rejoiced when they were scourged for the sake of Jesus, they did not complain bitterly about the system that meted out the punishment nor did they try and change the laws so that they could avoid being punished for sharing their faith.......bro Frank

 2013/9/28 14:19
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi appolus

John the Baptist was preparing the way, He would not have given permission for something that Jesus would soon after condem and he was not silent,
He instructed exactly what a soldier needed to do. and what he instructed is what has been inspired so that we know what to tell the Soldiers of our day to do.
He never told them to stop being Soldiers but he did tell them to be content with their wages, the wages of a soldier.

, Jesus specifically told the centurion of great Faith to 'Go thy way;'



 2013/9/28 14:22Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

appolus wrote : ///Good points Bear, not only Ann Hutchison but Mary Dyer. Many on this forum would not have survived in the colonies.///

I certaintly would not have survived in the colonies.

But thanks goes to God that God opened the door for William Penn to start writting against injustices and for religious freedoms from the cells of persecution.

And from Penns willingness to suffer for the Kingdom of God, The door was opened so that a democratic system with full freedom of religion, fair trials, elected representatives of the people in power, and a separation was established for colony opening away for English, Welsh, German and Dutch Quakers to the colony, but also Huguenots (French Protestants), Mennonites, Amish, and Lutherans from Catholic German states"

 2013/9/28 14:59Profile





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