| Re: |
Just-in, you were not attacked and therefore do not need to defend yourself. I am not agitated in any way. I have no questions for you. Your comments stand as do mine. God bless you..........bro Frank
| 2013/9/27 15:04|
| 2013/9/27 16:50|
| Re: |
We are indeed seeking a heavenly city. Therefore, knowing that we are not of this world, knowing that our citizenship is in heaven, knowing that the Gospel is our main focus, and knowing that our redemption is drawing nearer, should we then lie down like dead dogs and condone the injustices, condone the wickedness, and condone the direction our country is headed in because we have a future heavenly city?
Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I am wrong. But I certainly didn't see Abraham doing that. I didn't see Elijah doing that. I didn't see Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego, or Daniel doing that. I didn't see Job doing that. If I have received grace, does that, then, nullify portions of the good character of those men? I don't think so.
So my question is this: Where exactly is the line between Observing the state of the world and its events and getting caught up in them? Where are the scriptures that make the first clause positive, while making the 2nd clause negative?
I know the Gospel is important--more than any message I bear, but my belief in Christ shapes my political beliefs. If that seems biased, well I guess I am biased toward Christ.
| 2013/9/27 17:22||Profile|
| Re: |
"Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I am wrong. But I certainly didn't see Abraham doing that. I didn't see Elijah doing that. I didn't see Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego, or Daniel doing that. I didn't see Job doing that. If I have received grace, does that, then, nullify portions of the good character of those men? I don't think so."
Interesting that havok gives no NT examples. This is because there is none. it devastates peoples desires to be entangled with this world for surely there was none more wicked than Nero? Did Paul and the Apostles form a well regulated well armed militia to overthrow Nero? Did they work feverishly in the realms of politics and and join the zealots and kill Romans? Did they join with their fellow Israelites when Rome came to destroy the temple and the country in 67ad? No, they did not. The teaching was clear. The Kingdom, was not as most Israelites supposed, of this world, it was another Kingdom and a heavenly city yet to come. There battle was not against flesh and blood. The weapons of there warfare were not as the weapons of the world. They rendered not evil for evil. They blessed their persecutors and prayed for them. Nero was evil, perhaps one of the most evil men that ever walked the earth who had a particular hatred for Christians and he headed an empire that would destroy Israel but listen to what Jesus says to one of Nero's govenor's.........."Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."
You see, the power of human secular government comes from above and they do not wield the sword in vein. And He also use one secular entity to judge another secular entity, witness the destruction of Germany and Hitler and Japan...........
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
| 2013/9/27 18:06|
| Re: |
RE: ///Interesting that havok gives no NT examples.///
Jesus said ... "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
of whom was Jesus speaking of this great faith ? : a man under authority, having soldiers under him : whom held governmental power to be able to say to men, Go, and they goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to his servant, Do this, and he doeth it."
Of this centurion Jesus says : ,.. " Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour."
I am not aware that Jesus ever tells the centurion (an officer in the Roman army) to stop being a centurion.
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion (an officer in the Roman army) (a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews) of the band called the Italian band,
I am not aware of any evidence that Cornelius was told to stop being a centurion (an officer in the Roman army)
| 2013/9/28 1:01||Profile|
| Re: |
The early Anabaptist saw the danger of theology rooted in the Old Testament to believers professing faith in Jesus. This is why much of their faith is grounded in the reality of truth as taught by Jesus and His disciples in the New Testament.
While the Reformers such as Calvin and Luther saw church and state as one, no different from their Catholic predecessors. The Anabaptist saw that the church was a spiritual reality with Jesus Christ as its head. They saw that the church was composed of people who had undergone the new birth. Evidence of that new birth being issued forth in a righteous life in Jesus.
The Anabaptist believed that the church was a spiritual reality separated from the organized state of its day. As such like the first century Christians they incurred the wrath if the state.
So why the history lesson. Because those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. If we do not learn the lessons of the first century Christians and the fifteeth century Anabaptist, believers in America will be sucked into a state church. For God calls us to be separate from Babylon and to cleave as unto Him for a spiritual, heavenly city to come.
| 2013/9/28 9:25|
| Re: The Shadow and the Substance|
things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul reminds us that if we are New Testament Christians then our lives are governed by the substance and reality found in Jesus Christ. That dynamic being expressed by His Holy Spirit. His instructions for our lives being expressed primarily in the New Testament.
The New Testament is a spiritual book for a spiritual people. It's every word drenched in the blood of Jesus Himself. It is true suubstance and food for the follower of the Lamb who is Jesus Christ.
One who stays in its pages sees that the dynamic of the New Testament is rooted in the Holy Spirit. The center or I should say the dynamic of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit.
So people of the New Testament see a spiritual reality that transcends this physical reality. They are the ones looking for the heavenly country, the Jerusalem above, she who is our mother. The people of the New Testament understand what Jesus meant when He said my kingdom is not of this world.
In tbe above verse Jesus said if ny kingdom were not of this world my servants would fight to prevent ny arrest by the Jews. This is the tragedy of many American Christians today. They are fighting. But not in a spiritual war of the New Testament. But with the carnal weapons of the Old Testament shadow. The very spirit that drove the Catholic and Protestant state church so drives the American evangelical church.
They would say we must engage culture. Not with the gospel of Christ, but to conquer the pillars of government, education, media, religion, etc in the name of Christ. Basically with carnal weapons. Sounds very much like the crusading spirit of Catholic Rome, Calvin's Geneva, Cromwell's England, early colonial America. The one common element of that crusading spirit. Rooted in tbe shadow theology of the Old Testament. A paradyne that looked at a temporal reality and not a spiritual heavenly one.
God grant that we be people of the New Testament setting our hearts and minds on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
| 2013/9/28 10:02|
| Re: |
Bear wrote: ////The early Anabaptist saw the danger of theology rooted in the Old Testament to believers professing faith in Jesus. This is why much of their faith is grounded in the reality of truth as taught by Jesus and His disciples in the New Testament.
While the Reformers such as Calvin and Luther saw church and state as one, no different from their Catholic predecessors. The Anabaptist saw that the church was a spiritual reality with Jesus Christ as its head. They saw that the church was composed of people who had undergone the new birth. Evidence of that new birth being issued forth in a righteous life in Jesus.////
This is true and I agree, very good point.
Church and state do not mix.
Protasants and Catholics tried to christendom geographic locations, what a mess that created.
We certaintly all must agree that the Bible does not promote political obsession, nor the spreading of the gospel by means of governmental force,
But if we are honest with the Scriptures, than we must becareful that we do not pride ourselves above others with a position that has more traditional support than what it does Scriptural support.
I was given a book by a friend written by Dean Talor "change of allegiance" in that book Dean tells about being in the military in Berlin during the fall of the wall. Him and his wife started reading the Scriptures, they got to the "thou shall not kill" and they felt convicted to leave the military.
In the book Dean gives information for those whom are currently in the military and how to get out as a conscientious objector.
He makes a point in the book to make sure that you do not take just a noncombatant status because that is what they will offer, and if you agree to that, it is hard to get out.
But the inspired Scripture does not support that view.
The question is asked in Scripture of what a soldier should do, of which John the Baptist gives command : "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages."
John preached a straight and narrow message, but he never told the soldier's to stop being soldier's.
Edit add : John told the soldier's to be content with their wages and neither accuse any falsely, If we believe that God has of his Sovereignty inspired the KJV for the english speaking people, as what I do, than we must confess that, a Christian soldier should take a noncombatant status.
If however we believe that one translation is not above another, than John is only commanding the soldier's not to “take money from anyone by force", and would their by be indorseing the right of a soldier to use the sword in a lawfull way.
Lets becareful that our traditions do not cause us to use selective blindness toward certain scriptures.
| 2013/9/28 10:26||Profile|
| Re: |
RE: ////. There have been very few people that I have met who have not been shaped by their cultural and political background and bias.////
Their is no person who : "has not been shaped by their cultural and political background and bias"
| 2013/9/28 10:39||Profile|
| Re: |
John Knox believed more clearly than most, indeed, in the separation of Church and State, that they are not to be brought together, they are both independent, and they are both answerable to Christ. But he also believed that independence was not isolation, that the one should support the other; and he believed that the Church had a vital role in bringing before the leaders of the day the Bible’s teaching on moral, economic, social, defence matters. He argued strongly for people to get involved in lobbying, in arguing, in representing the case of the Scriptures in whatever forum they could, whether by letter, whether by standing for elections, whether by public meetings, by petitions, or whatever. He would say, “Get involved in politics”.
| 2013/9/28 11:36||Profile|