| Poster | Thread | MaryJane
Member
Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057
| | Re: | | t those rare times when strength is gone and the waters pour over our heads, there is no strength supplied and all we can do is lay at His feet and refuse to surrender to our human reasoning as to why we must suffer so. The despair at those times, is not self pity but a great fear that we have somehow wandered off of the pathway and no matter how much assurance is given, the afflicted one will not find peace for they fear that they have offended God in some way that they cannot fathom.
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I have read what you have shared and this part really does confuse me because by the way you have written it are you saying then that when a person does come out of this despair they do so by their own strength? By your words,as you said "there is no strength supplied," so then who is holding up this Christian, where does the strength come from? who gets the glory and praise for sustaining the christian through such a time???
God bless
mj
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|  2013/9/5 9:47 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi dear sister,
Can I suggest, for the sake of civil discourse, because I believe this to be an important topic, that we do not use phrases like
"The suffering is made worse by others who spout on about victory available if only they would trust, and for them to stop wallowing in the valley."
I think when you use the word " spout,' that it reveals a possible bitterness in you sister, but I could be wrong. I thought we already agreed about the fact that there would be times in our lives when we felt hopeless? When we despaired? When we felt abandoned? Having agreed upon that, why do you seem so adverse to talk of victory? Do you not believe that Jesus was victorious? Do you not believe that the promises are made , by Jesus to those who overcome? Do you not believe that we overcome in Christ because He has overcame? Again sister, you seem to be focusing on a snapshot rather than the whole walk of the Christian. Did Paul not learn to be content in every situation?
If you were to counsel someone who was despairing, and were called by God to counsel them, what would your counsel be to them? Would you tell them that they would never experience peace again in their lives? Would you tell them that joy was lost to them and that their situation was hopeless? Or would you not rather tell them that despite their present situation, that God loves them and has not abandoned them and in due time, in God's time, he would lift them in their hearts and spirits? Perhaps their situation might not change but that God, despite circumstances, brings victory to every believer who will lift up their heads and see where their help comes from.
So perhaps we see victory differently and that is why we may have our wires crossed here sister? If you see victory as an aleviating of circumstances, then we agree, often times the circumstances are not changed and will not change. I had lunch yesterday with a man whose 30 year old son committed suicide 8 months ago. Now the man was just recently diagnosed with cancer, so you could say he was having a bad year, his son is not coming back and he has to deal with the cancer. Yet the man has discovered victory in the midst of dire circumstances. He has chosen to trust God and lift his voice and praise him despite the circumstances.
Did that come without struggle? Absolutely not. Did he face a very dark night of the soul? Indeed he did. Yet,he has discovered it is the promises of God that is his strength. And that has allowed him to experience joy in the midst of great turmoil and experience the presence of God like he has never done before. How extraordinary, how supernatural. The Lord has prepared a table before him in the presence of his enemies. So where there should be defeat, this man has won through and found victory in Christ. Where the world would be overcome by such circumstances, he has found renewed strength, a new dawn in his life after a dark , dark night. God bless you sister...........bro Frank |
| | 2013/9/5 11:00 | |
| | Re: | | mj wrote
Quote:
I have read what you have shared and this part really does confuse me because by the way you have written it are you saying then that when a person does come out of this despair they do so by their own strength? By your words,as you said "there is no strength supplied," so then who is holding up this Christian, where does the strength come from? who gets the glory and praise for sustaining the christian through such a time???
Sister, there are times of dark night where all strength is gone, but glory be to God He does eventually come with an almighty shout and deliver that person. The person is actually preserved by God and nothing can happen without His consent, but of course the person during the time is not aware of it and sometimes the gates of hell are allowed to pour down but the life is saved.
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| | 2013/9/5 11:54 | |
| | Re: | | Dear brother
I was trying to express the feelings of the ones who are being told that they will be able to bear all things. It makes their sufferings ten times worse to hear these comments. I don't believe I have any bitterness myself. At times in the past however, I did feel extremely annoyed with people who made these comments but praise be to God no longer am I upset with them but merely want to point out that such times occur and those going through them are not helped to hear such things.
Indeed I do believe in victory as I have just said to Mary. And I would counsel them that in time the Lord will deliver them from the valley and that it is but for a period of time which is nothing compared with eternity. But it must be in His time when this sort of trial ends and the point I am making is that it makes the trial worse if a sufferer is told that the problem is their lack of faith or that nothing will be too much to bear when it clearly is for them.
I know the Lord's strength myself when my 33 year old son committed suicide and there were other circumstances to deal with.
I don't know why we are misunderstanding each other brother. I do find that many suffering great trials are given pat answers or shown verses in scripture when what they need is an arm around them and even a tear shed on their behalf just because they are in pain. Only in the church are members shooting their wounded and I just wanted to make that clear..
God bless |
| | 2013/9/5 12:06 | |
| | Re: | | Hi sister, you write......
"Indeed I do believe in victory as I have just said to Mary. And I would counsel them that in time the Lord will deliver them from the valley and that it is but for a period of time which is nothing compared with eternity. But it must be in His time when this sort of trial ends and the point I am making is that it makes the trial worse if a sufferer is told that the problem is their lack of faith or that nothing will be too much to bear when it clearly is for them."
Now sister, at least on this thread and the OP you will agree that no one ever suggested anything about a lack of faith in regard to the outcome or cause of a situation. My major point has nothing to do with that and it is this point that I am pressing, that we do have victory in Jesus in every situation and in that no brother or sister should ever be ashamed to say that to another brother or sister.
In the darkest valleys, when despair has risen up even to a point where we no longer want to live, then we fall back upon the Word of God. Let me say just one more time, the victory I am referring to has nothing to do with any one's actual circumstances ( although God certainly can and does change people's circumstances) the victory is quite apart from our circumstances, I think we can agree on that and I believe we are on the same page sister. I agree that a compassionate arm around another brother or sister and a tear shed with them is a beautiful thing, but in this I am sure you will agree, that when all have forsaken us, then there is Christ alone and the Word of God. We can shed tears dear sister and wrap our arms around another with the love of the Lord and we can also share the great promises of the Word that will ultimately sustain us, one can do both, they are not mutually exclusive, in fact, quite the opposite. If you are making a case against Job's friends or clumsy unfeeling brothers and sisters in Christ, then you have my support.
If there were things in life that was too much to bear then we would die. I think you will agree that we perceive them as too much to bear but in reality we can bear all things because of Christ our over-comer. This is our hope, our strength and our Joy. It is this " knowledge,' that ultimately keeps us. That is why that even although Paul despaired so, he did not die, God kept him from that and He keeps us. Here is one of my favorite Psalms and has all the elements that we have been speaking about............
Psa 57:1 To the Chief Musician. Do not destroy. A secret treasure of David, when he fled from Saul in the cave. Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me; for my soul trusts in You; yea, in the shadow of Your wings I will make my hiding-place, until these great troubles pass by.
Psa 57:2 I will cry to God most high, to God who does all things for me.
Psa 57:3 He shall send from Heaven, and save me from the scorn of him who would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth His mercy and His truth.
Psa 57:4 My soul is among lions; I lie among those on fire, the sons of men whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Psa 57:5 Be praised above the heavens, O God; let Your glory be above all the earth.
Psa 57:6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down; they have dug a pit before me, they have fallen into it. Selah.
Psa 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise.
Psa 57:8 Wake up, my soul! Wake up, harp and lyre! I will awake the dawn.
Psa 57:9 I will praise You, O Jehovah, among the peoples; I will sing to You among the nations.
Psa 57:10 For Your mercy is great to the heavens, and Your truth to the clouds.
Psa 57:11 Be exalted above the heavens, O God; let Your glory be above all the earth.
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| | 2013/9/5 15:38 | |
| | Re: | | My sister writes........
"I know the Lord's strength myself when my 33 year old son committed suicide and there were other circumstances to deal with."
I am so sorry to hear that sister. I can only imagine that this is a uniquely painful tragedy that could only be understood by those who had walked that particular narrow path. I can understand that you yourself may have fallen victim to platitudes by well meaning Christians. I am glad to hear that you knew and experienced the Lord's strength. The man that I spoke to yesterday, who had lost his son a couple of weeks before last Christmas would certainly relate. I myself had spoken to his son just four weeks before he died and it shook me. I had never met his dad until yesterday and there experienced the beauty of the Body of Christ, stranger in life, but brother in Christ............bro Frank
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| | 2013/9/5 16:47 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
If there were things in life that was too much to bear then we would die.
Dear brother that is not true. Men without God lose their minds when things become too much to bear although they sometimes end their lives. Job reached a point when things became too much for him to bear.
Despite great loss including his children property and his health, Job did not sin and continued to praise God. He accepted all things as from the hand of God though it was clearly shown that God did not send the evil. He permitted it and it was Satan who was the instigator. Job had learned in the past the secret of overcoming all of the bad circumstances in life, that is to say, in thanking God for them knowing that He could have stepped in and prevented them but He did not and Job had learned well that the most important thing is the state of our spirit, not material ease or the love and support of family and friends and that it is through suffering that we grow into spiritual maturity, unto the full stature of a man in Christ who also learned and grew through suffering proving God`s word that all things work to the good of those who are one with Him.
Chapter three opens up the reason why we suddenly find Job in utter misery and despair whereas previous to this he had peace and joy. He speaks of darkness and the shadow of death, the blackness of the day and the solitary night (3:6) where `no joyful voice come therein` (3:7) Job is describing the experience of seemingly being deserted by God where the light he had previously walked in, had been taken away and now he was in darkness, and he found himself in utter confusion (10:15).
The thing he had dreaded had come upon him, where he no longer dwelt in the rest that remains for the people of God nor in the safety of being sheltered under the wing of God. Job could cope with anything that life threw at him, even losing all he had so long as he was dwelling close to his Saviour and upheld by the arms of God and for us we too know the peace that passeth understanding while walking in His presence, on the mountain top, but God had consented to his sifting by Satan and those today who have walked in holiness, will one day find themselves plunged into the wilderness and experience that which their Master had been required to go through too.
Job finds himself in the wilderness and is tempted by three voices from what are supposed to be his friends. It may be that the three voices are going on inside of Job`s head, the voices of human reasoning standing against the voice of Job`s former spiritual insights when he was walking in the light and holy and therefore having the discernment to see things from God`s point of view through having the mind of Christ. Although the light has gone, he retains the knowledge and argues back from it, reasoning against his opponents accusations that:
a) even though he admits that he has lost his assurance that he is holy, he once was confirming that man can live without sinning
b) it was not sin which brought about his downfall therefore he is not being punished by God. God later confirms that Job was correct and that the voices were wrong.
It is a point of torture for those who are on the same path and who fall into the dark night, to seek the sin which has caused their fall from grace.
Job reproves the voices and shows they are not coming from divine wisdom. He shows that the attitude of Eliphaz is wrong and not coming from the Holy Spirit and of a heart of love when he says in response (6:14) `To him that is afflicted, pity should be shown from his friends, but he forsaketh the fear of the Lord`. Eliphaz is not walking in the Spirit.
`Do you imagine to reprove words and the speeches of one who is desperate which are as wind?` (6:26) How true it is that those who are in trauma and despair find little help and comfort, even in the place where help should be found in the church especially those who are passing through the dark night of the soul, and find like Jesus `I looked for comforters but there were none`.
May we be mindful not to increase the sufferings of such as these by correcting their confused thoughts with `sound doctrine`, in the meantime without pity or love. Instead how often do we overwhelm the fatherless, digging them a pit (6:27) instead of encouraging them that the Lord always returns to those whom He has seemingly deserted.
Job asks `How long wilt thou not depart from me nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?` (7:19) He begins to think that the cause is that he has sinned for this is the explanation of the voices but he does not understand because he desires to be restored and repents but with no result. `And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away mine iniquity?` (7:21) (If this is the reason for the desertion)
Job wishes to be restored but it does not happen so the voices put the blame on him. O how often is this repeated in the churches? Then Bildad speaks `If though wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty, IF though wert pure and upright surely now we would awake for thee (8:5). The voices have no understanding of the higher works of God which are above human reasoning which His holy ones must go through. Perhaps this is the voice of temptation seeking to destroy Job`s faith. Job pleads with God `Do not condemn me show me therefore Thou contendeth with me (10:2) The way to the Holy of Holies is a strange and narrow path.
Job shows his superior spiritual standing by his longing to be restored to God and his agony when not in the conscious presence of the Lord, not content to be standing in position only, living in the dead letter of the word and not with the Living Word as his guide. `O that I knew where I might find Him that I might come even to His seat` (Song of Songs 23:3) and echo the plea of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon (SS 3:11) by night on my bed I sought Him whom my soul loveth, I sought Him but I found Him not, the seeking bride cried out, `I opened to my beloved but my beloved had withdrawn Himself and was gone.
My soul faileth when He spoke, I sought Him but I could not find Him, I called Him but He gave no answer` (SS 5:6) and like Job and His comforters. `The watchmen that went about the city found me; they smote me; they wounded me; they the keepers of the wall took away my veil from me (SS 5:7).
Job prophesised his own restoration (23:10) `But He knoweth the way that I take, when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold, as the Shulamite emerges (SS 7:5) `Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness leaning upon her beloved. Jealousy is cruel as the grave, the coals the re are coals of fire which hath a most vehement flame`.
There is no need to fear, however, the purification and cleansing of the Lord as the famous hymn neatly puts it in How Firm a Foundation :
When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie
His grace all sufficient shall be thy supply
The flame shall not hurt thee His only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.
Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous, his claim for holiness and his dispute with his friends that sin had not brought about the separation from God was correct. He had spoken the truth. `I have sinned ,' (he mistakenly thinks) what shall I do unto Thee O Thou preserver of men? Why hast Thou set me as a mark against Thee so that I am a burden to myself? And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust, and Thou shall seek me in the morning but I shall not be` (7:20-21).
Eventually it is too much for Job and he calls the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`
The three comforters had driven Job over the edge. Only those who have been through a Job trial know what this suffering is and that those who have not been thrown into this baptism are unable come to any other conclusion that the afflicted one is to be blamed because they are in effect saying that things can be so bad that it is beyond a believers ability to bear it.
Only those who have not been in Job's place will judge him to have become lacking when all he needed to do was trust God. They will think that he brought it on to himself without knowing of the spiritual battle behind it. Job nearly lost his mind I believe but just in time he was delivered.
This kind of trial is not common but it is known well as the dark night of the spirit.
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| | 2013/9/5 16:51 | |
| | Re: | | Thank you brother for your kind words. I was not given platitudes by believers. Instead they were silent and acted embarassed. The Lord was a great strength at the time and I do not consider it the most severest trial though obviously very painful indeed. |
| | 2013/9/5 17:01 | |
| | Re: | | In all of this you are speaking about yourself and it has little to do with Job. Is it your hope Brenda that by means of accusation you can press men into platitudes and fables? It cannot work even though it would appear that men are indeed easily pressed into platitudes and fables. |
| | 2013/9/5 17:19 | |
| | Re: | | Dear sister..... you write.....
"The three comforters had driven Job over the edge. Only those who have been through a Job trial know what this suffering is and that those who have not been thrown into this baptism are unable come to any other conclusion that the afflicted one is to be blamed because they are in effect saying that things can be so bad that it is beyond a believers ability to bear it."
Am I assuming you count yourself as Job and know of what you speak because of your suffering? And I, holding a slightly different view from you must not know suffering? Can that really be your argument?? I will assume not unless you correct me.
We, sister, no matter what level of suffering we go through, we still have a choice, still have a responsibility to respond to that situation with trust in God. We do not reach a level of suffering that qualifies us to dwell perpetually in hopelessness or despair. Even David, who through no fault of his own, found himself in a cave said that he was " steadfast." He ultimately says that he would awaken the dawn, that he would praise him to the nations. You cannot do that in a cave. You cannot see the dawn in a cave, in a cave there is only darkness. And so we, as Christians, still have a responsibility to trust God and hold on to His promises, especially when all is darkness. This is, by the way, the testimony of the Church down through the ages.............bro Frank |
| | 2013/9/5 18:56 | |
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