"That he could find a way to insert persecution into that parable was bizarre to say the least.

In fact the inversion is epic"

For all intents and purposes, the ease with which we employ very strong language against fellow well-meaning brothers- also saved by grace- will make Apostle Peter go back "a-fishing." And Brother Emeka will follow him.

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Emeka Joe Uzosike

I believe that brother Andrew understands very well where I am coming from and did a rather good job of explaining it. My dear sister sees everything from her doctrinal stance, and there is danger in that, the danger of the doctrinal grid placed over Scripture to make it say what we want it to say. Of course Psalm 1 has a clear doctrinal stance that is exposed by his statement, but again, if your doctrinal perspective is wrong and you have used your grid to interpret all Scripture to fit it, then you build error upon error. The simple plain expression of Scripture is always the best way to go. For example, if we are told to do something, then we should do it. If we are admonished to be ready, then we should ready ourselves. If we are told to arm oursleves with the frutiful results of suffering in the flesh for the sake of Christ, then that is waht we should do. If Christ tells believers in Reevelation to repent, then we should repent if it is applicable to us.

Just for clarity, I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do believe that genuine believers will suffer greatly in the tribulation period and the run up to it, and this can be called persecution. So, there are degrees of suffering, and all genuine Christians will and have suffered to one degree or another. Yet, praise God, He never leaves us nor forsakes us and when the enemy comes in like a flood, He raises up a standard, He gives us the grace that we need when we need it. He is glorified in all of this and there is a spirit of glory that comes from the faithful witness of genuine saints............bro Frank

Brother, we cannot avoid viewing the scriptures through our own lenses and the most significant way of interpreting is through experiencing an encounter with the living Christ which opens up the truth to us or gives us light. With each profound encounter, the scriptures are opened up to us in deeper levels. At one time we read "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and then later, we see that it means spiritual adultery too, that is, the worship of idols, and then even later, that it means even our thoughts. The more we know Christ, the more integrated our understanding of the scriptures will be, because of this spiritual understanding rather than intellectual grasp alone and the more obedient we will be, as we see His beauty and magnificence.

So there is no simple level for everyone. "Prepare your selves" and "arm yourself" are too vague unless it has been revealed to us exactly what is required. Some will understand preparation as merely having knowledge yet others will see that they need a complete makeover. Even "repent" is not clearly understood as some think it just means feeling regretful rather than a total turn around against sin.

Each of us are merely stating our individual interpretation of scripture and a man will show how much he knows Christ by his behaviour towards others. Does he insult other believers or does he show respect to all? The first man will have a very shallow understanding of the deeper spiritual meanings of scripture. Many believers at a less mature level will insist that theirs is the true interpretation without seeing that other meanings are possible at more mature levels and show their immaturity by their ungracious ferocity in disputes.

HI dear sister.

I am certainly not against seeing the Scriptures through our own lenses in light of our walk and the revelation of Christ and the illumination of His Holy Spirit to us, in fact I would commend that to all. No, what I clearly said was that people bring pre-conceived notions to the Scriptures, a grid, which they place over the Scriptures then make them say what they want them to say.

Say for instance you were sold out to a doctrine of sinless perfection, then you would make the whole Scriptures fit in with that perception and the clear and simple interpretation of many of the Scriptures would be lost as you tried to make it fit into your own personal opinion of an overall doctrine. The same could be said for Calvinism and its counterpart. Or again could be said for the pre-tribbers and so on and they come up with what they call " problem," Scriptures, meaning Scriptures that do not fit into their overall view or doctrine.

Imagine that you are a Calvinist and you read a Scripture that says God would have that none would be lost but that all would come to a saving knowledge of God? Does that change their minds about their doctrine? No, not at all, they would simply ignore that Scripture or come up with some outlandish explanation as to why it did not mean what it clearly said. ( this is definately not an invitation to debate Calvinism or sinless perfection)

As for grace sister, you missed what I said and spoke past me, perhaps in a rush to say that I was wrong, when in fact we are both saying the same thing. " He gives us the grace that we need when we need it." The key part of what I said was " when we need it." If we need a dark night of the soul, a wilderness experience and so on, then the Lord knows. If you think the best of me, if that is your knee jerk reaction, then perhaps you would see that. Do not be too quick to say that I was wrong, for in this you may still be operating in the flesh. I know this sister because I have been there a thousand times in the past. In my anxiousness to prove another wrong, I often missed the fact that we were both in agreement, but that was not my main priority, my main priority at those times was proving to others that I was right. God bless you sister and may the Lord be glorified in these days.............bro Frank

Dear brother

I have never been the sort of person who is more concerned about keeping their 'system' intact rather than cast themselves adrift into confusion, in search of truth. I have never felt more concerned about being a part of the 'crowd' than accepting the loss of people who would not accept a 'traitor' in their midst.

During my early years in a Reformed church, I accepted what I was taught but later found many verses that did not add up to the system I was being presented with, and I could not let them go or accept the convoluted explanations around them.For example, why would the writers of scripture say 'the world' if they had a different meaning to the plain and simple one?

Leaving Calvinism behind was a scary thing especially as it was before internet times. I looked at other theological systems and attended a Dispensational church for a while, and got lost in Revelation. I always remembered however that I was taken in with Calvinism and determined at that point to research myself, everything that was presented to me as truth and not just accept it because learned men said so.

During this time I read the writings of holiness teacher Oswald Chambers, and found the right direction. It was a path I had never heard of previously. Things started to add up. Then when I heard that the way to become righteous, which was the the longing in my heart, was by faith in what Christ did in taking us to the cross with Him, it was Eureka!

Since then I have searched the scriptures and have been more than happy to test out what I felt that had been revealed to me directly from Christ which was against all that I had previously been taught in my many readings of opposing theologies. The Lord deemed it necessary to keep me separate from the church during this time so there was no pressure to conform. I read widely from past writings in the new direction I found myself in.

At times I have spent many weeks and months sometimes studying apparent inconsistencies, such as the beginning of Corinthians where Paul calls them sanctified, but which to me was not in line with Keswick theology. At the same time I was experiencing the things I read about.

I arrived at a point where the scriptures were amalgamated enough for me to feel confident in the truth I felt had been revealed, and I found then other writers who were on the same page as it were, but I have never stopped searching the scriptures.

The way to tell if we are on the right track is that our understanding of God's word will line up with what goes on in our heart and lives.I read that those of Christ will suffer in the flesh and will be persecuted, but the power of God will allow one to be an overcomer and enable one to resist all temptation and that is what I was finding in my life.

I only have to look around me at the believers I know to be sure beyond doubt that they are on the wrong track as they fall at the first instance in failing to support and love a fellow believer who is too sick to attend any service and then leave them to rot (in case anyone starts accusations, it is even when they do not know what my beliefs are). Many other believers are like me and too chronically sick to be in church and they are left alone too with no compassion or support.

The theology of the mass, is seriously wrong and it shows in their actions.

Dear sister, you wrote.........

"Brother that is not clear from your words if you have to add something and especially for younger believers who will take the words you uttered at face value. For many years I believed when I was told that God will not put anything on you that is too much to bear but I found that untrue and it caused me great sufferings. I do see your meaning though."

I could definately add something to clarify, no doubt sister. I was glad to read that we agree on not being sold on systems. I would like to make a point about your last sentence of the quote above. The Lord says in His word that we would never be tempted more than we were able. By His word and by my experience, I have found it to be true, despite death and disease and all the troubles of life which the Lord has allowed me to walk through, I have found Him to be faithful thereby not making it too much to bear. Hundreds of thousands, indeed millions down through the last two thousand years have found that to be true also sister. So many of those were brothers and sisters who had lost everything, were tortured and imprisoned and then horribly killed, but their testimony of the grace and yes, even joy that they found in the deepest of dungeons, lives on and lives out the Word. I would like to add one of my favorite testimonies from a martyr from 1557, his name being Algerius. Now Algerius was imprisoned for his faith, horribly tortured not over days or months, but over years, and then a few weeks before his equally horrible death, he pens this letter to those on the outside...............

To my beloved brethren and fellow servants of Jesus Christ, who have gone out of Babylon unto mount Zion, whose names I do not omit without cause, grace, peace and mercy from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Amen. In order somewhat to sweeten or take away the pain which you suffer on my account, I would communicate to you the sweetness which I experience, that you may rejoice with me, and shout for joy with thanksgiving in the presence of the Lord.

I will tell to the world an incredible thing, namely, that I have found infinite sweetness in the bowels of the lion. And who will in any wise believe what I am going to relate here? Who can believe it?

In a dark hole I have found pleasure; in a place of bitterness and death, rest and hope of salvation; in the abyss or depths of hell, joy; where others weep, I have laughed; where others fear, I have found strength; who will believe this? In a state of misery I have had very great delight; in a lonely corner I have had most glorious company, and in the severest bond, great rest. All these things, my fellow brethren in Jesus Christ, the gracious hand of God has given me.

Behold, He that at first was far from me, is now with me, and Him whom I knew but a little, I now see clearly; to whom I once looked from afar, Him I now behold as present; He for whom I longed, now offers me His hand; He comforts me; He fills me with joy; He drives from me bitterness, and renews within me strength and sweetness; He makes me well; He sustains me; He helps me up; He strengthens me. Oh, how good is the Lord, who does not suffer His servants to be tempted above that they are able I Oh, how easy, pleasant and sweet is His yoke.

Is there any like God the Most High, who sustains and refreshes those that are tempted? He heals them that are bruised and wounded, and restores them altogether. Isa. 41; 43:20. None is like Him. Learn, most beloved brethren, how sweet the Lord is, how faithful and merciful; who visits His servants in trial (Isa. 43:2); who humbles Himself and condescends to be with us in our huts and humble abodes. He gives us a cheerful mind and peaceful heart.

The Lord says in His word that we would never be tempted more than we were able. By His word and by my experience, I have found it to be true, despite death and disease and all the troubles of life which the Lord has allowed me to walk through, I have found Him to be faithful thereby not making it too much to bear. Hundreds of thousands, indeed millions down through the last two thousand years have found that to be true also sister. So many of those were brothers and sisters who had lost everything, were tortured and imprisoned and then horribly killed, but their testimony of the grace and yes, even joy that they found in the deepest of dungeons, lives on and lives out the Word.

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Thank you Frank for such an encouraging reminder. FATHER truly does give us all that we need in the exact moment we need it. I am learning the times that I feel are the most difficult to go through are the ones when I take my eyes off of HIM...

God bless
maryjane

HI sister, let me first address the point about 1 Cor 10:12-15

So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
No temptation has taken you but what is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but with the temptation also will make a way to escape, so that you may be able to bear it.
Therefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.

Matthew Henry says of those verses...........

"III. But to this word of caution he adds a word of comfort, 1Co_10:13. Though it is displeasing to God for us to presume, it is not pleasing to him for us to despair. If the former be a great sin, the latter is far from being innocent. Though we must fear and take heed lest we fall, yet should we not be terrified and amazed; for either our trials will be proportioned to our strength, or strength will be supplied in proportion to our temptations."

So sister, I think we may be talking past each other again for it seems that we may just actually agree. Certainly there were times of despairing for Paul, as with all believers I believe. Yet, and here is the most vital part, it was not their state, it was not their walk, it was indeed a snapshot in time and space. Now that snapshot may be an hour, a day a month or a year, but a snapshot none the less which is why Paul can later say that he had learned to be content no matter what situation he found himself in.

And so sister, you and I agree that in order to reach the highest peaks of the mountaintop, one must first be familiar with the lowest depths of the valleys. Yet, if you take these Scriptures and use them as an excuse to wallow in the lowest depths of the valley and never achieve victory, never come to that place of overcoming ( and I know saints like this) one would be pandering to the flesh and not overcoming and and persevering. The promises are made to the over-comers sister and we know that we will have troubles in this life but we have also been to be of " good cheer for I have overcome the world," and its in this overcoming lies the victory, victory in Jesus, our Saviour forever.

Let us praise God that He never leaves us nor forsakes us, even in the darkest moments of our lives when we feel abandoned and lost we can look to the Scriptures and past our feelings and know that His Word never lies. We can know even the Lord Himself when He cried out to God in heaven above " My God , My God, why has thou forsaken me," that indeed He was not forsaken, God was still His Father and He was still His Son and that the plan of God would be fulfilled.

And so I would say to any brother or sister reading this, if you feel abandoned or forsaken, if you are despairing of life itself, that yes indeed others have felt that way, in that you are not alone, and that you have a God who has promised you that He has not forsaken you. The Word of God is true and never changes, not like the world or our circumstances or our feelings, and we can stand on the solid rock of the Word of God and His promise, all other ground is sinking sand and will swallow you whole. The promise itself is life, and when we choose to believe God in the midst of our circumstances, life will flow from that when it is ready to flow. God know, let us trust God in everything.............bro Frank

Brother indeed I agree with you that the Lord never forsakes us as He has made promises which cannot be broken. However, there are times, in the deepest pits in the valley, when one can have the full force of hell released in the same manner of Job, and to be in utter confusion, as to why God does not appear when one is in the deepest repentance and longing to have the Lord return after knowing such sweet communion, but instead there is a greater pouring forth of the seeming wrath of God. At those rare times when strength is gone and the waters pour over our heads, there is no strength supplied and all we can do is lay at His feet and refuse to surrender to our human reasoning as to why we must suffer so. The despair at those times, is not self pity but a great fear that we have somehow wandered off of the pathway and no matter how much assurance is given, the afflicted one will not find peace for they fear that they have offended God in some way that they cannot fathom.

The suffering is made worse by others who spout on about victory available if only they would trust, and for them to stop wallowing in the valley. Instead they should thank God that they have not been called to share in the sufferings of Christ and show compassion over a matter they do not understand nor have experienced such as Matthew Henry who could mistakenly write "for either our trials will be proportioned to our strength, or strength will be supplied in proportion to our temptations.".

Again, the verse is regarding temptation to sin and not an escape after sinning.

blessings to you.