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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Our Sense of Sinfulness Works for Good

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 Re: Our Sense of Sinfulness Works for Good

by proudpapa on 2013/7/18 19:59:41

Something to consider,

As I am reading through the various post and comments from everyone, I am noticing that their are very few Scriptures being given.

I can not exactly place it, but something feels off.

Very much agree.

 2013/7/19 7:23


I agree that 'something is off'. The sense of sin has it's place in bringing us to Christ, the law being our teacher thereof, but once we are in Christ, then the purpose has been served and it is purity and the sense of being pleasing to God which dominates when His righteousness becomes ours..

It is a mistake to think that a sense of sin is needed to stop us from becoming proud. No man who has been through the wilderness with God and has suffered the dark night of the soul, being brought down to the dust, can ever think that there is anything good in himself. He learns very well that he is nothing as he determines that he will never never again depend on his flesh. This man can never forget his weakness and knows how prone he was to wander.

This is the way to freedom, not a constant fight against the evil desires of the flesh. Once it is in death, a man can concentrate on serving His Lord, knowing peace and joy, but the man who thinks he needs his sinfulness for good, is deceiving himself, as he accomodates it as a good thing and gives up the desire for holiness thinking it is not possible in this life.

What it boils down to is, that the flesh has not been dealt with in a Biblical way. Crucified.

 2013/7/19 8:29

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


What it boils down to is, that the flesh has not been dealt with in a Biblical way. Crucifed

What has been crucified scripturally is the "old man", not the flesh. The flesh's influence can be put down through walking in the Spirit, but it is never truly removed - only conditionally nullified through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ to them who do not walk after the flesh. The flesh's practical strength over the spirit (and vice-versa) is moment-by-moment dictated by our "provisional" decisions. This daily, provisional motivation and responsibility to not feed the flesh but rather mortify its lusts through our collaboration with the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural and I can provide dozens of verses if anyone would like.

Those who are seeking a one-time experiental death blow to the flesh thinking it will solve all their sin problems, will be sorely disappointed. It doesn't exist, apart from the teachings of gnosticism. According to plain Scripture the disciple of Christ must daily take up his cross of self-denial, make no provision for the flesh, gird up the loins of his mind, put on the armor of God and walk in the Spirit while ever-appropriating the grace of the very life of Jesus Christ, which comes through humility. The "lusts of the flesh" are crucified via spirit-led mortification, but the flesh itself cannot be done away with, for its definitive eradication will not occur until we become as Christ Himself is at glorification. But while on earth, such is the scriptural way to overcome the flesh and win a constant victory over the fulfilling of its lusts. There are no short-cuts over the flesh apart from our collaborative effort with God in fleeing temptation and putting the "lusts in our members" to death through the winning of the exchanged Life and Power of Christ, which comes to us by way of faith.

Paul Frederick West

 2013/7/19 10:04Profile


Good contributions Krautfrau and Paul.

Yes, Krautfrau it is our sense of God in the person of Jesus Christ and what He did for us and is still doing that keeps us humble.

Paul, good stuff, it is daily overcoming and apprehending Christ. We can never believe we have arrived.

But we must behold Him not ourselves. "Looking unto Jesus..." Heb 12:1

A "sense of sinfulness" works condemnation but our "sense of Christ" brings freedom from every encumbrance.

 2013/7/19 10:20

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

 Re: Often times we flee

Here is something I get sent from Chuck Swindol via e-mail, hope it blesses you guys:
As a pastor, it doesn’t take very long before you understand that the ministry is not a job.

It’s a calling.

I love Paul’s first letter to his younger friend, Timothy. It is full of great reminders for us as pastors.

Over the next few posts, drawing from this essential epistle, I’ll be challenging all of us in three areas related to our calling, specifically:

What do we flee from?
What do we follow after?
What do we fight for?
By the way, I see our calling as pastors as a responsibility that comes from God . . . without any expectations of pastoral perks on our part. Here’s what that means:

We don’t do it for the money.
We don’t do it because the hours are good.
We don’t do it because everybody will love us.
We don’t do it because of where we get to choose to live.
Why do we do it? Because we cannot be satisfied doing anything other than our calling.

Honestly, can you think of any greater privilege?

Our calling as pastors includes running. Lots of it.

I’m thinking in particular of Paul’s words in his first letter to Timothy: “You, Timothy, are a man of God; so run from . . .” (1 Timothy 6:11 NLT).

The word run comes from the Greek term pheugo. We get our word fugitive from it. It may sound strange at first, but we who are called to minister are like a fugitive. We should be constantly fleeing from evil.

Paul’s letters contain certain things that the man of God is to run from. In fact, you and I will be running from these for the rest of our days:

Immorality (1 Corinthians 6:18).
Idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:14).
Arrogance and conceit (1 Timothy 6:3–4).
Covetousness (1 Timothy 6:6–10). Guard against every temptation to covet your parishioners’ salaries (you will rarely make as much as they do) or longing for the things they own.
Youthful lusts (2 Timothy 2:22).
Quarrelsomeness (2:24). I urge you to be known as a person who keeps the unity of the Spirit, rather than one who disturbs the peace of God’s saints.

An older man in ministry once shared with me four common things that cause a minister to fall: silver, sloth, sex, and self.

Flee from those things as they relate to evil. That’s right. Run!

May the things God calls us to flee from never be associated with you . . . or with me.

Next week, I’ll write about what we should follow after.

I wrote you the last two weeks that the ministry is not our job. It’s our calling.

That calling requires that we flee from certain things.

However, along with fleeing from those things, we need to follow after other things.

I love the double action stated here. While we are fleeing from certain things, we are at the same time following after other things. The word that appears in my Bible is pursue (1 Timothy 6:11). The tense of the original term indicates that we should keep on pursuing these things.

Paul lists five pursuits for Timothy—and for us:

Pursue righteousness—another word for integrity.
Pursue godliness—a reverence for God and a hatred for sin. May that always be true of us! Don’t hold loosely your relationship with God. Samson did that and we all know what happened to him as a result. Hold very closely your relationship with Christ.
Pursue faith—a deliberate refusal to walk by sight. You will be tempted repeatedly to let your sight guide you. You’ll be surrounded by others who will choose to do that. Don’t go there. Trust God . . . lean on Him . . . rely on Him. Have Him fight your battles for you. Have Him clear your mind of things that are disturbing you and distracting you from your calling.
Pursue love—“seek the highest good of others” (the best definition of love I’ve ever read). Be affectionate in season and out of season. When you feel like it and when you don’t. When you’re younger or when you’re older. When it’s early or when it’s late. When they like you or when they don’t like you. When the church is growing or when your ranks have plateaued. Perseverance in love should mark your life.
Pursue gentleness—another word for meekness. May you be known as a humble man of God, giving others the credit they deserve and always pushing that credit away from yourself.

Keep on pursuing these things. As you do, you’ll honor God.

Next week, I’ll talk about the right kind of fighting.

- See more at:


 2013/7/19 11:01Profile

 As one who has stumbled

Proverbs 24:14-20

"Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous, spoil not his resting place:
for a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again:
but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth; lest the Lord see it and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked; for there shall be no reward for the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out".

The Lord knows we, as believers and followers of Christ, given his Holy Spirit will stumble and fall even though the price has been paid for our sin. It is painful, but it keeps us in the cleft of the Rock and ever acknowledging the price it cost Jesus. He does restore and we need not wallow in past sins, but the fact that there were and are consequences is a reality. If I don't thank him daily for forgiveness of sins, my heart gets hard and proud as some here have said so eloquently.

It is the wicked or unsaved man or woman who is not chastened and goes on in their sin. These are those we continue to witness to and pray for that they might know this priceless gift of forgiveness for their sins by our Precious Lord Jesus.

A continually chastened, yet loved daughter of the King,
Sister Leslie

 2013/7/19 12:01


Quote from PaulWest: Those who are seeking a one-time experiental death blow to the flesh thinking it will solve all their sin problems, will be sorely disappointed. It doesn't exist, apart from the teachings of gnosticism.


On the contrary, many of the greatest saints attest to an entire sanctification experience and went on to be great preachers of holiness and leaders of evangelism in the history of the church including Finney and Fox, many of them being leaders of new denominations where thousands were saved, when they were ousted from traditional churches who would not accept this work of the Holy Spirit and their witness proving that the flesh fights against the Spirit.

There is a long tradition of these men going back to the patristic period which has nothing to do with gnosticism as they never preached a salvation of inner cleansing allowing for outward sin. When men fight against this doctrine, it merely means that they have never come to this place of crucifixion.

They peached a one time death blow but also a moment by moment dependence on the Blood to remain in purity.

 2013/7/19 13:07


They peached a one time death blow but also a moment by moment dependence on the Blood to remain in purity.

I believe I can agree with that. It would be much better if we were all talking in person because we would accomplish much more. I sense "in the spirit" I understand the context that Krautfrau is speaking of and will give her the benefit.
Mainly because I have experienced that death blow but in addition (and glad Krautfrau included it), much dependence on the blood (daily) to remain in purity.

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 2013/7/19 15:30

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2157

 Re: declaring the whole counsel of God

Let a woman be learning in quietness with all submission.
But I do not permit a woman to be teaching, nor to be exerting dominance over a man, but to be in quietness.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, has come to be in transgression.
But she will be saved through the bearing of children, if they remain in faith and love and holiness with sanity. 1 Timothy 2:11-15

God has spoken above to one here who is contrary.

"If error is harmless then truth is useless." - CHS

Error is lurking at the door but Truth has answered her.
But she does not flee because she is as Proverbs 7:11 says.
"God sets Himself against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones."

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

May God through His Word do all of the above to whom He sees fit to do so..."For as the rain and the snow comes down from the heavens and do not return there, except it waters the earth and make it bring forth and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in what I sent it to do!" Isaiah 55:10-11

 2013/7/19 16:16Profile



This is a fellowship forum and male and female can share their views. If the moderators thought it was not appropriate for women to share their view then they would have shut them down a long time ago. Paul West has been dialoging with Brenda for quite some time, now.

I don't witness any men being dominated by women, though I do notice some domineering men.

Please show some grace to your brethren.

 2013/7/19 18:13

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