| Re: |
Biblical conversion and its instantaniety is not something that can be debated. We are talking about passing from death to life (John 5:24 makes it clear it is instant). God taking our hearts of stone and making them hearts of flesh. We are talking about receiving the Spirit as a seal and guarantee of our salvation. The very nature of the way in which conversion is spoken testifies to this instant quality.
More than that, the line of thinking that conversion does not happen apart from instant sanctification testifies against the very Gospel it claims to support. I have met a few men who believe on this line. Their version of the Gospel is merely on the conservative end of man-centeredness. This ain't about you, brother. This is about Jesus Christ and His glory. If your sanctification depended on you, then you would have something to boast about. But Again, God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of Jesus Christ. What we do in this flesh counts for nothing in attaining salvation. Being a new creation is everything. And that doesn't happen in a process. Works are important after salvation, not for its maintenance, but for the love of our Savior and a pursuit of holiness and our testimony to mankind. I have said my peace about this.
Edit: Clarification of 'this.'
| 2013/7/15 13:57||Profile|
| Gradual sanctification not scriptural|
As I am researching through the Scriptures on the topic of sanctification, it appears that sanctification is a reality for the believer,(believers are sanctified)
It appears that the fruits of this reality are produced when the believer embraces that reality.
It does not seem to be so much about dieing to self, but instead reckoning our self dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
| 2013/7/16 2:23||Profile|
| Re: |
Yes I agree that there is a process leading up to rebirth or baptism in the Spirit. The rebirth though is an end to sinning. Then afterwards there is growth but it is not a growth towards holiness, it is growth in grace. Those ho have not experienced the power of the Holy Spirit over their old nature, to put the old nature to death have not yet arrived at the new birth.
Now I understand the difference between both of us. I think the difference is in understanding the term sanctification. For me to say that I am completely sanctified is to say that I am totally free from sin. For you sanctification is positional and a realization of the work done by Christ.
Having experienced the baptism of Holy Spirit, I have to confess that I am not yet sin free. I have not been entirely sanctified yet based on my definition of sanctification (which I believe is scriptural). But what this Baptism has done is it has given me power to overcome. I can either use this power and be an overcomer in my everyday temptation or I can live according to the flesh. To even sustain this power I need to seek to be filled by his Spirit everyday. It is like a vessel, you call a vessel filled only when it is completely filled. It will remain filled only when there is a continuous inflow. Same way there should be a continuous inflow of Holy Spirit in our life. This is what Paul mentions growing in Grace.
There are still so many unconscious sins in my life and God is faithful in showing them. As he shows them I confess them, repent and then use his Power to overcome. This is spiritual growth. I become more and more Christlike if I am in this path of Growth.
According to your definition, my experience is unbiblical because it is against your theology. But It is Biblical. This is what Paul is talking in Philippians 3-13. Paul is not struggling with Known sins like adultery. If he was then he will not call the Church to follow him as he follows Christ. He was talking about the unconscious sins that are still left in him. Until God shows them he will never become perfect. For Peter the sin of Hippocracy in front of Jews was an unconscious sin. He got carried away by their presence seeking to Honor the opinion of Men. But when Paul rebuked Peter and shed light on this sin. He immediately repented and set his path right.
If you are calling my experience as unscriptural then you need to give a satisfactory explanation to Phillipians 3-13. Based on your explanation of this scripture it appears that you have to twist the word to derive a meaning that will not affect your theology. You should also explain a number of scriptures like - Phillipians 2-12.
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
What is the work that God is doing inside us if the work is already completed? If sanctification is already complete we just need to embrace it then there is no need for God to work inside us. But there is a work and we need to workout with him. This work is confirming believers to the image of Christ and bringing them from Glory to Glory.
There are people who believe in partial truth, there is nothing wrong in that as they are ignorant to the complete truth. But to call the complete truth unscriptural is not acceptable to any standard. It is Blasphemy.
I will stop posting in this thread further as I have expressed the truth both by my personal testimony and scripture.
| 2013/7/16 3:16||Profile|
| Re: |
I am not calling your experience of a gradual work unscriptural. I agree that there is a gradual work leading up to a profound change in our spirituality. The scripture depicts the sudden change as 'birth' 'putting on and putting off' 'baptised in' and 'entering in' etc. So we are either in or out of a specific change, and there is a process going on both before and after consisting of growth.
Paul is not speaking of becoming perfect in Phil 3:13 as he says in verse 15 that the others who ARE perfect (and must include himself in that) should think alike. The perfection he was referring to in 13 was to do with the fulfilment of his ministry - the crown of martyrdom.
I think a lot of trouble including our disagreements is caused purely by having an experience but appropriating the wrong Biblical name to it. And off we go arguing. So let's look at what the scriptures say about what salvation and baptism of the Spirit are, how they are related and what the effects are.
WHAT SHALL WE DO TO BE SAVED?
Peter said to them 'repent and be baptised' and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost' Acts 2:38
He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved Mark 16:16
So it is baptism of the Spirit that saves, through the 'outward coming, sufferings, and death of Jesus Christ, through whom their souls are reconciled unto God' being personally applied to a man at the point of his baptism.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Peter then says to those saints who are suffering persecution that they will also be saved because they have appealed to God to cleanse their conscience through baptism. Why baptism? Because that is where the Holy Spirit tells us the blood of Christ is for those that have repented and turned to Jesus for salvation. We read that in Romans 6 and Colossians 2.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
God has taken the Old Testament understanding of baptism just being for purification of the flesh to a higher level and made it for purification of the soul.
And what of the man who is baptised not in water but in the Spirit and in the kingdom? Shall he still sin? No said John Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not not just according to the light he has been given,
but he that doeth rightousness, is righteous EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS Be ye holy He said As I am holy. There is no gradual sanctification
Does this occur when we first come to Christ for forgiveness? Lets look at the disciples. Did the Holy Spirit fall on them when Jesus first called them? No it happened at Pentecost where they were made holy, Before that they were immature and full of doubts and fears.
As carnal believers they needed another work of God and that occured when He rose from the dead and found them cowed and afraid. He breathed the Holy Spirit on them sanctifying them and enabling them to be bold and in agreement so they gathered in the upper room waiting for the promised baptism of the Spirit which absolutely and utterly changed their characters in one fell swoop. No process of gradual sanctification. They became holy because it was the HOLY Spirit that engulfed them.
Whether we have been sanctified or entirely sanctified, there is a daily applying of it as it is not a past event but a present application.
| 2013/7/16 4:16|
| Re: |
Quote by Sree: According to your definition, my experience is unbiblical because it is against your theology. But It is Biblical. This is what Paul is talking in Philippians 3-13. Paul is not struggling with Known sins like adultery. If he was then he will not call the Church to follow him as he follows Christ. He was talking about the unconscious sins that are still left in him.
I cant agree that we can be partially sanctified; you are either sanctified or unsanctified. Just like when were justified we were unjustified then by a simple step of faith we became justified and then we grew in that grace we received.
Now lets examine the verse to try and get a understanding what Paul is on about. Paul to me is writing about the High calling of God in Christ, he is not talking about sanctification but rather glorification which he had not attained.
Phil 3: 13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Paul is not talking about unconscious sins but rather the body which is not yet glorified, thats what I you could call perfect holiness, and we will never be perfectly holy until we have attained the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
But what holiness is available on this earth? What should sanctification look like while we remain on earth in our un-glorified bodies? What is the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments they are worthy; this is whats available on earth for us to be able walk on this earth undefiled. Being undefiled speaks of purity, it speaks of Holiness. They were overcomers the have believed the Gospel message and walked in its fullness while on earth. But I also see that we can fall, we can slip, we can become undefiled, so I am not promoting sinless perfection however this verse does speak about sinlessness.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
He that overcometh this gets me thinking about Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. The victory that overcomes the world is our faith its our faith that allow us to overcome and enter his rest, it is in that rest that we stop from our own works. Heb 4:10. What are our own works could they be the works of the flesh? I dont know yet, but I assume it to be so as the works of the flesh would have a very defiling influence on us. Stopping from ours works being led by the Holy Spirit being a Son of God these are the things I am thinking about.
Oh the reward to the overcomers to be clothed in white and to walk with Christ, can you imagine the joy, the gladness, how bright we would be with rejoicing, the peace of conscience and joy in the Lord? Standing in front of the Father and Christ confesses your name to him
Now thats the High calling of God in Christ.
| 2013/7/16 7:00||Profile|
| Re: |
We can certainly be partially mature, however you guys want to define it.
| 2013/7/16 12:37|