| Poster | Thread | KingJimmy
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| | Indwelling of the Spirit in OT Saints | | Recently my girlfriend and I got in a small debate about if the Spirit of God indwelled the Old Testament saints. Since she's doing a paper on this at Bible school, I put together a small informal paper/study of my own for some food to chew on regarding this topic. It shall be interesting to see what other Scriptures are produced.
Though this is far from an exhaustive collection of Scriptures to show that the Spirit indwelled the Old Testament saints, I think it is sufficient. I shall quote from the NASB, and offer some comments unless I think the passage cited is more the abundantly clear enough and needs no exposition.
[b][u]Within the Prophets[/u][/b]
1 Peter 2:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time [u]the Spirit of Christ [b]within[/b] them[/u] was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
Numbers 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;
[b][u]Spiritual Birth[/u][/b]
Deuteronomy 10:16 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer
Deuteronomy 30:6 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
9 Nicodemus said to Him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
Moses called for Israel to have a circumcised heart. Of course, such cannot physically be done by any man. Rather, Moses showed just as Paul said, that such a inward circumcision is only possible through the Spirit of God. Abraham and his descendants were to circumcise the foreskins of the male children in order to serve as a sign of the covenant God established with Abraham. Outward circumcision was to serve an outward sign of an inward reality, much as water baptism does today for the Christian. Such inward circumcision could only be done and [b]maintained[/b] by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was quite surprised that Nicodemus didnt understand what it meant to be born of the Spirit of God. After all, Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel, and Jesus believes any teacher of Israel should surely understand this concept. Jesus speaking of being born again is the same concept of Moses speaking of the circumcision of the heart.
[b][u]The Temple as a Type[/u][/b]
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Hebrews 8:1 Now the main point is what has been said is this: we have a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve as [u]a copy and shadow of the heavenly things[/u], just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, See, He says, that you make all things according to the [u]pattern[/u] which was shown you on the mountain.
Paul and the author of Hebrews have an understanding of the Old Testament temple as serving as an earthly copy of what is in heaven. Hebrews author cites Exodus 25:40 where Moses is told to make the tabernacle according to what he literally saw to prove that the temple and its ceremonies served as copies of the heavenly realities. Since the Spirit of God indwells all believers, the temple is invoked as an image of this truth. Now, this truth is not simply a truth of the New Testament believer. The temple simply served as a copy of what was already a heavenly reality. The heavenly temple of which the earthly served as a copy shows the indwelling of the Spirit as an eternal truth, which can be applied to all generations, New and Old Testament alike.
[b][u]Not of this World[/u][/b]
Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth
16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Genesis 49:9 So Jacob said to Pharaoh, The years of my sojourning are one hundred and thirty; few and unpleasant have been the years of my life, nor have they attained the years that my fathers lived during the days of their sojourning.
The patriarchs acknowledged that they were not of this world. They recognized their citizenship was a heavenly one. They realized they were simply passing through (sojourning) this world.
[b][u]Depending on God's Spirit[/u][/b]
Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 [u]I will put My Spirit [b]within[/b] you and cause you to walk in My statutes[/u], and you will be careful to observe my ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you be My people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel is speaking to the exiles, promising them one day that they will come back from the nations that they were scattered to due to their rebellion. God promised that those who would return God would cause His Spirit to indwell so that they would have the ability to keep Gods commandments.
Zechariah 4:6 Then he said to me, This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts.
After the exiles returned to Israel, they began to work on rebuilding the temple, although there was a brief stoppage due to complacency and political pressures. God let Israels governor, Zerubbabel know that the temple work would begin again, and that it would be completed. He assured Zerubbabel that this work would not be done through political might and power, but rather, it would be accomplished by relying entirely upon the Spirit of God to accomplish the task.
[b][u]Conclusion[/u][/b]
The consistent testimony of the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, that it is only by the indwelling Holy Spirit that men can live a life of faith and godliness. After all, how else but by the Spirit of God could you live such a life? All who have been born again, and born from above, have only done so by the Holy Spirit. It is only those who have been born of heaven that can testify that this world is not their home, and that their citizenship is of heaven, and that they are just merely sojourners in this world.
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Jimmy H
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|  2005/3/16 16:24 | Profile | InTheLight
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| | Re: Indwelling of the Spirit in OT Saints | | This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.
Is God a deficit spender? Would he give out regeneration and complete restoration from the fall before the price was paid?
Do I believe that OT saints weren't saved? No. But they were looking to God to supply all their need, they were looking to Messiah. They had no idea what he would look like or that he would come as a baby and grow and then die on a cross. I believe they were assured that God would supply all for them for their future state, but they didn't know the details.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| | 2005/3/16 17:15 | Profile | geddingsm
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| | Re: | | It would seem to me that in the OT the Spirit came on those that were to be used but could not remain.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and REMAINING ON HIM, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost could not dwell with and unclean unregenerated human spirit.
Just my humble opinion. Quote:
InTheLight wrote:
This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.
Is God a deficit spender? Would he give out regeneration and complete restoration from the fall before the price was paid?
Do I believe that OT saints weren't saved? No. But they were looking to God to supply all their need, they were looking to Messiah. They had no idea what he would look like or that he would come as a baby and grow and then die on a cross. I believe they were assured that God would supply all for them for their future state, but they didn't know the details.
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marvin geddings
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| | 2005/3/16 18:58 | Profile | PreachParsly
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| | Re: | | If the Holy Spirit indwelt the old testiment saints... why was Jesus talking about the Comforter to come? What about the day of Pentecost? What was that all about? Ive always thought that the Holy Spirit just came upon them... but this should be a great study.
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2005/3/16 19:27 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | 3 Prepositions in the Greek for the Holy Spirit:
IN He is in.
PARA He is alongside
EPI He is down upon.
- The Holy Spirit was [b]alongside[/b] people convicting of righteousness and leading into all truth.
- The Holy Spirit was [b]down upon[/b] certain prophets and kings for service for Gods Kingdom.
- The Holy Spirit [b]came into[/b] people's life only in the new covanent through the finished work of Jesus Christ.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2005/3/16 20:45 | Profile | KingJimmy
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| | Re: | | Quote:
This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.
Their regeneration that they enjoyed was secured by the work of Christ which was accomplished before the foundation of the world.
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ
The OT saints partook of the spiritual blessings Christ has provided.
Btw... glad you are contributing to the discussion Ron. I thought of you when I was posting this on the forum :)
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/3/16 21:12 | Profile | KingJimmy
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| | Re: | | Quote:
If the Holy Spirit indwelt the old testiment saints... why was Jesus talking about the Comforter to come? What about the day of Pentecost? What was that all about? Ive always thought that the Holy Spirit just came upon them... but this should be a great study.
The outpouring prophesied of in Joel had yet to occur, that is what Jesus was anticipating. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 was about equipping the entire community of believers with the gifts of the Spirit, whereas in the Old Testament times, a few prophets here and there were used in great ways, or a few leaders such as kings and judges were given the Spirit in regards to ministry. That is not to say though, that every person who geniunely placed faith in God did not have the indwelling of the Spirit, they didn't just have the Spirit come upon them in the fashion of the selected few.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/3/16 21:20 | Profile | InTheLight
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Their regeneration that they enjoyed was secured by the work of Christ which was accomplished before the foundation of the world.
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ
The OT saints partook of the spiritual blessings Christ has provided.
There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regenerated. It is strictly an assumption to say they were regenerated, based on nothing in the Word.
If the OT saints took part of the spiritual blessings of Christ;
1)Why didn't they have the benefits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit?
2)Why didn't they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
3)Why weren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit?
4)Why did Old Testament saints go through a priest but New Testament saints are all priests?
There are many more questions that could be asked. These questions are not related directly to regeneration, but they are directly related to the fact that there were some major shifts after the cross - these shifts were due to the work of Christ - they were not possible before that work was finished.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| | 2005/3/16 23:14 | Profile | philologos
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| | Re: | | Jimmy
another reference in support of your position might be the reference to Bezaleel; Quote:
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
(Exo 31:1-3 KJV)
In fact, this is the earliest reference as far as I can see and that itself may be significant. The 'infilling' of the Spirit was plainly to give Bezaleel unique abilities. It was to equip him for a particular task. There is no evidence that Bezaleel set up a jewellers when he had finished the work on the Tabernacle. It was a temporary equipping.
This is the thrust of the Old Testament narrative passages which relate to the work of the Spirit. He comes, and Ron (inthelight) is right the predominant preposition is 'upon' in the Old Testament experience. However when the equipping is an internal equipping, as distinct from Samsons, or Saul, or David the Holy Spirit comes upon the creative faculties of men and women. It is this 'part' of the men and women which is 'filled' rather than the innermost shrine of their personality.
The creative faculty is the area of prophetic inspiration and we see in the narrative of Ezekiel that he too was 'filled' with the Spirit;Quote:
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. (Eze 2:1-2 KJV)
This is Ezekiel's 'call' and he too is 'filled' with the Spirit, but again in strictest terms the Spirit has filled his creative powers to equip him as a prophet.
This is significance of the reference in Peter;Quote:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1Pe 1:11 KJV)
These men recognised the inward inspiration of a Spirit that was 'within' them, but again you will see that this was an equipping for a unique service. The true Bible expression for this is an 'anointing'.
The OT saints were only too aware that such an equipping was not necessarily permanent, hence David's prayer;Quote:
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psa 51:11 KJV)
Nor were David's fears idle ones; he had seen this exact thing happen to King Saul.
It is the work of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit, rather than an equipping Spirit that is the special revelation of the New Testament. The phrase 'Holy Spirit' is only used in Psa_51:11; Isa_63:10; Isa_63:11; and in each case the word holy is used in contrast to the sin of God's servants.
The Spirit's work in the New Covenant is very different in its thrust. We so easily forget the extraordinary ministries that the apostles (including Judas) had in the gospels. They were commissioned to Quote:
(Mat 10:8 KJV) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Of their 'successful' ministry Jesus declares; Quote:
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you... (Joh 14:17 KJV)
but the distinctive promise of the New Covenant is captured in a tiny phrase...Quote:
and shall be in you
. It is important then to understand that all that they accomplished was accomplished without 'the Holy Spirit within them'. They were commissioned and wonderfully enabled to fulfil their God given tasks, and all without the Holy Spirit 'within them'.
The contrast is seen in John's letter where he uses the familiar language of 'anointing' but in a New Covenant awareness; Quote:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1Jo 2:27 KJV)
See where the anointing has gone now; 'within you', and see too that this is no transitory experience; He has come to 'abide'.
We must never minimise the Old Testament saints; their experience was glorious (2 Cor 3:10) but it was a glory that inevitably began in its fulness and faded, as with Moses. The New Covenant begins gloriously and goes on from glory to glory.
The Old Testament narratives (and the New Testament) account of them reveal the Spirit equipping men and women externally in power for extraordinary feats of strength and internally for extraordinary creative purposes, but the New Testament concentrates of the coming of the Spirit into the very central shrine of a man or woman with the purpose of transforming them into the image of Christ.
The reason I have referred often above to the 'narrative passages' of the OT is because it is necessary to make a distinction between what happened 'narrative' and what was going to happen 'prophetic'. The abiding indwelling of the Spirit is clearly spoken on in Ezekiel 36 but this is Ezekiel's promise of what Jeremiah refers to as the New Covenant, and clearly has its centre in the personal transformation rather than powerful equippings for service.
My understanding of this is very much in line with Ron (inthelight) I think.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/3/17 3:31 | Profile | KingJimmy
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| | Re: | | Quote:
There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regenerated.
I've offered already several verses in my first post which you have yet to deal with that I use to show that they did experience such. Please see those.
Quote:
1)Why didn't they have the benefits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit?
Where do you come up with such an assertion? Do you not see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control displayed in the lives of the OT faithful? Hebrews 11 surely covers the faithfulness part. All these virtues of the Spirit are quite exalted in Proverbs.
Quote:
2)Why didn't they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Actually, they did have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, though in a limited sense. It is beyond my current ability and time to do such (not to mention I just loaned out my copy of the book), but I would highly recommend to you Roger Stronstad's "Charismatic Theology of St Luke" to show that there is continuity between the OT demonstrations of the Spirit, and the NT. Stronstad shows more than convincingly that Luke-Acts employs the same languages that the OT historical narratives use to talk of the activity of the Spirit. He shows rather exhaustively what I can only show in part. In addition to the aforementioned passages with the Spirit of the Lord in the believer...For example:
Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are [b]clothed[/b] with power from on high."
1 King 19:19 So he departed from there and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, while he was plowing with twelve pairs of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth. And Elijah passed over to him and [b]threw his mantle on him.[/b]
(the idea of clothing/mantle are the same idea)
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit [b]came on[/b] them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
2 Chron. 20:14 Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the LORD [b]came upon[/b] Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph;
Chronicles and the like seems to like the "come upon/came upon" description more than Luke does. However, Luke uses "filled" in the same way Chronicles uses "came upon." The disciples in Acts did not walk around constantly full of the Holy Spirit (though they often had long times of such an experience). Rather, they seemed to receive constant refillings which is always tied to supernatural acts, such as with the OT characters.
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, [b]filled[/b] with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people,
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all [b]filled[/b] with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 13:9 But Saul, who was also known as Paul, [b]filled[/b] with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,
Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually [b]filled[/b] with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but [b]be filled[/b] with the Spirit,
Being filled with the Spirit is an ongoing, repeated experience, subsequent to the Holy Spirit baptism.
Also, here is an example of the Old Testament Spirit baptism:
Numbers 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.
These seventy elders received the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that they might charismatically lead Israel as its rulers. This is much like the famous baptism of the Holy Spirit passage in Acts 2. An Acts 2 type scenario is never spoken of again in subsequent fillings the apostles experienced. They only experienced the mighty rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire once. Much as in the above passage.
Quote:
3)Why weren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit?
Paul uses the term "sealed" to denote ownership and authority. The OT saints no doubt belonged to the Lord.
Quote:
4)Why did Old Testament saints go through a priest but New Testament saints are all priests?
The priesthood as cited in the Hebrews passage I quoted in my first posting simply served as copy/shadows of the heavenly reality. It's a total mistake to believe that the OT saints were not all priest.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD , A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
All Peter is doing here is citing:
Ex 19:6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
The universal priesthood of all believers was taught by Moses. Just because all did not partake in the Levitical priesthood (the type) doesn't mean they weren't all priests unto God.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/3/17 10:11 | Profile |
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