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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Fundamentalism and spiritual death

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

To the world, a fundamentalist is one who believes the Bible literally, one who believes Jesus is the only way to heaven, one who believes in a literal heaven and hell, one who believes fornication and homosexuality are sins against God, and the list goes on and on.

When we're out on the streets, my friends and I get called fundamentalists or fundis quite often because we try to preach the pure gospel truth, the whole counsel of God's Word. I'm kinda used to it I guess.

I believe if John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus were here today they would be called the same by the world. Leonard Ravenhill said, “If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.”


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Oracio

 2013/6/6 20:42Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Just to clarify I do agree with the gist of what is being said here regarding strict legalism on non-essentials and spiritual death. My concern is that the word fundamentalism can mean different things to different people, and it can cause unnecessary division and hurt if we paint a broad brush using that term.


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Oracio

 2013/6/6 21:20Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Lysa
your example is a stepping stone in my examples. Follow it up with KJV only and women should not wear pants or have short hair and men should have short hair. That only begins the foundation of it.

I find myself only laughing at these people and throwing their nonsense back in their face. For, if their belief is that strong in these areas they truly have issues under their skin. I have noticed that these things have caused some people to leave Christianity but maintain their faith in Jesus and begin to use cuss words in order to get their thoughts across. I don't advocate cussing at all but I am not going to get in their face and rebuke them(although I want to). Rather, in cases of that it is better to find out what happened to them and help them work through it in order to clean up their mouth.

btw, some posters are posting the definition of Fundamentalism. It is my guess then that what I am describing is more of the ultra conservative Fundamentalism. The kind that holds to every jot and tittle to the extent that freedom in Jesus no longer exist but becomes a system of rules and regulations instead of 'I don't want to do this because I don't need to do this' type of attitude.



Lastly, Southern Gospel. I liken it to the be holy grail of the ultra's. I often watch those commercials on the Gaither Homecoming stuff. Some of the music is ok but on the whole I could not listen to it as background music because musically it is not my taste/style. SO why does a (ultra)fundamentalist find that it is the only music to listen to? Lyrically I can see it but musically? (uh, gag me?) Yeah, I am being funny about it simply because I can't help but laugh for crying over how frivolous it really isn't.


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John

 2013/6/6 21:30Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Oracio

As I said in a previous post that what I may be referring to is the ultra fundamentalist crowd. The crowd that thinks similar to Independent Baptist churches. They believe certain ways and that is the way it is. Things outside the bounds of the core of the Gospel which, when take to the extreme, abuse more than they grow in people. I see alot of people coming out of it these days and labeling it as Fundamentalism. I read blogs on this all the time and sympathize with these people.

This guy at work who is very Fundamental with the Church of Christ stuff is very serious with his knowledge. He also hates his job because of the circumstances around what he is doing. People don't see Jesus in him. They see an attitude in him but he is quick to talk about the Gospel and then point it to the Church of Christ dogma. Can a person live this way and be happy? ( in Jesus?)


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John

 2013/6/6 21:35Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings John

The man you mentioned at work that you seem to have such frustration with are you able to pray for him? If he is as you say lost in this legalistic attitude then he truly does need your prayers. Perhaps when he comes at you with some of these things you could look him in the eyes and just let him know that you love him and are praying for him.

God bless
mj

 2013/6/6 22:20Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

MaryJane
I do pray for him at times. I also listen to what he says and ask him questions accordingly to find out what is making him tick. This way I can talk to him better. He can quote scripture but for him it comes around to this question 'What did Jesus say?' Especially at the end of the Gospel. Believe and be baptized for the remission of sins.

My next round of questions for him is to ask Him what is God doing in the Earth? I has scoffed at people being healed or someone giving a Word of knowledge type of thing. If he doesn't believe in these thing I want to ask why his God is in a box. He will again refer to the bible.

He has asked me if music should be in church. I know why he asks because CoC doesn't use music. I tell him the Prophets in the OT used instruments on the mountains. He gets frustrated and asks what the NT says. singing songs, and spiritual hymns which means accapella. I have told him that if he holds to this as Gospel truth then he has issues inside. Yet this reflects a fundamentalist view in many cases. Remember-the bible says......


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John

 2013/6/6 23:07Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

I agree with Oracio, I think we as Christians need to be more responsible in how we use certain words and strive to use words according to their proper meaning (ie. according to its correct definition). We need to consider the historical context of a word and not merely our own personal definition which might be negatively biased. For example, the word "religion" which is defined as: 1) an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality; 2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance - is now used to mean "legalism" which is absolutely incorrect. "Legalism" is "religion" without Christ whereas true worship is "religion" in Christ. The reason why misusing words, like "religion" for example, is so problematic is because it creates a false dichotomy between practice and belief, leaving room for people to label anything that seems too "old fashioned" or "not fitting to this contemporary world" as associated with "religion" in a very negative sense and rather lean toward trying to "modernize" or make "relevant" the faith by neglecting the tried and true traditions and doctrines of the church, all justified because they seem to be "so loving" and the music is "good". It is by this very false dichotomy derived from the incorrect use of the word "religion" that we get pastors who will deny the inerrancy of the word or teach "new doctrines" and consider the old fashioned gospel of sin, righteousness, and judgment or preaching on holiness and righteousness as more akin to a "spirit of religion" than the truth of God that echoes through the ages.


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Will

 2013/6/7 1:29Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

tbsounde2

This is why I put forth the term ultra fundamentalism. What would you prefer that it be called?


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John

 2013/6/7 7:29Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by DEADn on 2013/6/6 17:07:50

MaryJane
I do pray for him at times. I also listen to what he says and ask him questions accordingly to find out what is making him tick. This way I can talk to him better. He can quote scripture but for him it comes around to this question 'What did Jesus say?' Especially at the end of the Gospel. Believe and be baptized for the remission of sins.

________________

I am so glad you are able to pray for him. There are times when one can find themselves so frustrated by another attitudes and behavior that praying for them becomes very difficult. I have had this happen to me but I am learning that the more I pray for those around me that I struggle with the more my heart is filled with love for them. Its amazing how GOD works like that :)

You might share with him that his question is not in and of itself a bad one, "What did Jesus say or do?" in a situation is a good place to start because after all we are his followers and want to only do what HE has for us to be doing. When he brings up the need for baptism as a "must" to be saved, perhaps you might just say, "For me its not an issue that I worry about. I realize there are those who say "I must" be baptized in order to be saved but all I have to say to that is "I want to obey Jesus so I want to be baptized" He commanded me to repent of my sins and be baptized so as HIS servant I want to please HIM by obeying HIS command so its not a "must do" for me its more of a heart thing, I want to do. Ask him if he can see the difference in those two thoughts. One brings life and is a result of natural our pouring of the love we have for CHRIST. Our desire to obey HIM is there because we love HIM. The other attitude brings death because the word "must" is slipped in by the enemy taking away the joy of obeying the LORD with a legalistic work that "must" be done. I was baptized because I love the LORD and I wanted to be. It was never a question of "do I have to do this?" it was always "yes LORD!!" in reply to HIS command.

I think if you can stir the conversations in such a way that point him to Jesus instead of engaging in debates you will find you feel a lot less frustrated with him. Remind him that you don't have an issue sharing about the wonderful things JESUS is doing in both your lives but that you have no interest in debating him. Keep the conversations on a personal level of sharing what the LORD is actually doing daily in each others lives and then give the glory to GOD for all that HE does. Share with him that for you its not about winning an argument its all about living a life that reflects JESUS to others.

I will pray for you and your co-working. I think GOD has placed you there with him for a purpose to be a light to him perhaps, what an exciting opportunity to be able to love on this man and share JESUS with him.

God bless
maryjane

 2013/6/7 9:15Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

MaryJane

Your points are well taken. The only fly in the ointment on this is that this guy is near 60 years old and has been in this church a long time. He even studied for ministry at one point in time. With him he will go from one point to another point.

i.e. The last conversation I had with him was just before I left for my trip to South Carolina. I told him I might go visit that 7th day Adventist church again with my sister n law. His response was what day of the week did the early Christians meet? I thought, 'oh boy, are we playing these games again?' I told him Sunday but if he wanted to follow the commands then when is the Sabbath? I also told him that a soul is not destined for hell because they did not attended church on a particular day of the week. He looked at me with a depressed look. Can you see ultra Fundamentalist developing here?

He wants to take this conversation to more of obey Jesus and how do you obey Jesus more? What did Jesus say? If he said nothing about music then you don't use music in church. It just goes on and on and on.

For me to get through to him I have to properly balance the word and deflect his argument like a ninja warrior deflects the opponents sword. He gives me his view and I use the bible to balance that view. If he doesn't like it then I allow him to think his way and I go my way.

He tends to get a little loud as well so I gentle keep my voice low because it gives for better conversation. A loud voice makes for arguments of which I refuse to get into. Discussion is my game.

Does that make sense?
I suppose you have to also read the words of those who are CoC missionaries to understand their conversational thinking to see where it can all go.

I often ask if Paul is left out of the equation because Paul writes about salvation and baptism as well.


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John

 2013/6/7 9:54Profile





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