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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : For those seeking entire sanctification.

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 For those seeking entire sanctification.

I have started this thread so that we have a place to concentrate on discussing seeking and not debating whether the second blessing is true or not.

I do agree with Wesley and others including Keswick teaching about this stage. It is when we are delivered from the power of sin and are free to walk without conscious sin.

It happens in an instant when Christ has been revealed to us as Sanctifier and we have consented to having our old man crucified. Well he was crucified with Christ on the cross but we find as our spiritual walk goes on that it is not actually working in us and no will power seems to help.

We can be filled with good intention after a conference or after a good sermon, but come Monday we are back to the grind and the frustration of not being able to `hold` the highs of the weekend.

When we are in His Rest this does not happen - we do hold onto it simply because it is our nature to be so once we have been freed from the chains of the flesh. We can be as busy as anything yet inside we can pray without ceasing and hear Him speak to us no matter what we are doing. We don`t have to settle down and get quiet first.

We can know what it means to have lasting peace and joy and have that assurance in our hearts that He is well pleased with us and that we could enter heaven immediately without having to clean up anything first - that secret sin that we have failed over and over to get under control.

Brothers it is a great thing but the reason we want it must be pure. It is to be for Him. He needs us to be pure so He can safely reveal Himself to us and reveal the secrets of His heart.

So lets pray for one another and seek Him with a passion.

Brenda

 2013/5/12 6:52
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: For those seeking the second blessing.

Sister, as I read your post I thought, "this is a description of every single child of God, though some are more sensitive to their sins than others."

I can testify to walking in that state which you mention there, though I would not call it a "second blessing" or "sinless perfection". I would probably call it walking in a state of having no known or willful sins. You experience that when you get born again, when you truly repent of all your sins and trust in Christ. Immediately at true conversion the chains of sin are broken, the heavy burden of sin is lifted and removed, and you are cleansed of every single sin through the blood of His cross. You "enter into His rest" through child-like faith in the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. You begin to experience joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that passes understanding which you knew nothing of before you were saved.

Yet the Lord has been faithful to show me areas where I still fall short and need to grow in by His grace and strength. I believe the important thing is that as true believers, we should not lose heart when, after walking in that state of no known sin, the Lord suddenly reveals to us an area that we need to correct through repentance. That is where some may get discouraged and think they may have lost their salvation because they are made aware of some sin they need to repent of. My simple advice there would be, repent of that sin and trust Christ to forgive and cleanse you of it (1John1:9), get back up and continue to pursue holiness through sanctification of the Spirit.


_________________
Oracio

 2013/5/12 11:05Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

See, I think a huge problem in these days is that we have lowered the standard of true conversion. We have thought that one can be saved and practice known sin at the same time, living a life of complete defeat when it comes to sin. That is a clever deception of Satan. Though a true believer will not be perfect or sinless, he/she will be sensitive when confronted with any sin in his/her life.

Because of that misunderstanding and watering down of the gospel, there have been drastic effects of it in churches. And some have felt that the solution is to encourage professing Christians to pursue a "deeper" experience where you are are really set free from sin's bondage, when all the while the solution is to be aware of true and false conversion.


_________________
Oracio

 2013/5/12 11:26Profile









 Re:

Brenda as I said on the other thread there is a growth involved. You do not grow instantly into the likeness of Christ. Just as a child must grow into an adult. So one must grow into the likeness of Christ. As one grows more into Christ their hatred of sin and love for holiness will grow.

Bearmaster.

 2013/5/12 12:12









 Re: Oracio

With respect brother this thread is not to discuss the truth of the seond blessing - that crisis we come to after we have most certainly come to Christ for forgiveness and have known the honeymoon period but have gone on to sometimes years later we find ourselves unable to be overcomers especially with our besetting sin and all we get from others is that we are not saved after all when we know we are believers.

What it means is that the deniers have not actually reached the stage of conviction by the Holy Spirit over unholy lives and do not know yet that hunger and thirst for righteousness that Kenneth is experiencing praise God. Thanks for your contribution but please use the other thread for your objections.

ps and you too bearmaster thanks.

 2013/5/12 12:22
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Brenda, thanks for the respectful way in which you replied to my posts. I guess I didn't see anything wrong in sharing my views on this topic here since it is a "Scriptures and Doctrine" thread, and I thought we share some similar views on sanctification. But for the moment I feel I've said enough on my part here. Unless anyone wants to inquire further from me on my views I think I will refrain from any further posts on this thread.

Blessings,
Oracio


_________________
Oracio

 2013/5/12 12:33Profile









 Re: For those seeking the second blessing.

Quote:
I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. Wesley



I agree that this revelation given to Wesley is not conversion as some would have it. I also agree that it was a blessing to him. What I cannot comprehend, is in what way this constitutes a second blessing. Or why use that term at all. I have to say that Wesley is describing something here which any believer could comprehend in an instant of time even from the first moment of being saved. I further see that the last comment "saved me from the law of sin and death" carries a further weight of understanding. What is not so clear, is what understanding. Is it the same as saying "the power of sin and death working in my members" or is it an affirmation that even continued sin is "reckoned with?" This seems important if only because it attends to the meaning of holiness. That Wesley comprehended this need before this experience must be so, otherwise he was not saved before hand at all. It is not the need for holiness which makes victory certain but obedience, and yet Wesley acknowledges that before this specific revelation he was variously walking under the Law and under grace. Both with and without success no doubt. I guess anyone who walks under the Law, comprehending that the Law of God is good, righteous and holy will inevitably discover that the flesh can strive to keep the Law of God with varying degrees of success. Any doctrine which supports that view may simply lead to self righteousness and the inevitable stumbling along the way. On the other hand I know many believers, including myself who truly do comprehend the eternal security which Wesley speaks of here, predicated on Christ' sacrifice for sin, yet who do not know what sinless perfection is in experience of their real lives. In short the discovery of this precious truth which Wesley received here if laid hold of fully ought to lead to a basis for trusting and resting in the finished work of the cross.

Terms like sinless perfection, entire sanctification and even "there remains a sabbath rest" have no meaning outside of the revelation itself. When I was first saved I actually thought for a few weeks that I would never sin again. I realise that this was immature, but I have to say that what made me think this way was simply the corresponding light of Christ given and the comprehension that in the presence of Christ it is impossible to desire or else to sin. Given that this presence of the Lord does not remain in this way (your honeymoon) clearly there has to be a crisis of some sort. The desire to be holy is a compulsion when the Lord is comprehended yet when He draws back to teach us how to walk and follow Him, we are become for a while like desperate children seeking for their parents. It is a wretched feeling at best as well as a discouragement if the enemy comes in because we fail to trust the Lord in it. Yet the revelation which Wesley describes remains even in this hour of difficulty. In summary what you have called the second blessing appears to mean the cross.

 2013/5/12 17:00









 Re: amrkelly

Yes indeed it is the cross. A second visit to it because the first one did not reveal the fullness of what Christ has done for us. I don`t know whether this is due to lack of teaching or whether it is inevitable that we fall from our first love (yes I recall that period when I was not sinning and would have died for Him in a flash at that moment - later on I would have to think about it first). Perhaps we need to sink into the depths of despair first before we are willing to sacrifice the right to ourselves as Oswald Chambers calls it, at a much deepr and basic level, and then He becomes every breath even of our body.

I don`t know why I ever doubted the doctrine of ES myself afer seeing that indeed, when the Lord`s prescence is very powerfully with me, that I can walk without sin (it lasted three weeks at that time) It was impossible for me to sin as all I wanted was to please Him and I would rather have killed myself than hurt Him. It was however, a fortaste of what was to come. It is actually a return of it but much more profound. And you never recover from the wonder of it - that is why folk keep talking about it. It even overshadows conversion.

But then things begin to slip.

I know, the terms second blessing, entering His rest etc have no meaning outside of the revelation and are inadequate to describe it and second blessing is the worst one as we get many blessings. But it is one which people recognise and know what you are talking about.

Wesley does give a good definition actually, that is, being saved from the law of sin and death. When you do come to this crisis event, if you do that is, and it is unbelief that prevents it, you experience this salvation most powerfully. What believers do not understand, is that continuing sin whether deliberate or not, still separate us from God and bring spiritual death, that is to direct union with Him the sort of union that we felt right at the start.

We need to stop sinning so that we can be released from this law, long term (it can be reversed however). This is what happens when we have a second return of Christ revealing to us the full extent of the salvation He has gained for us and which probably we were too imature to conprehend.

This is one clue that tells me that Wesley was talking about this, and this was what had been missing for him previously. He had started reading holiness teaching, and when he came across the witness of the Moravians on the boat, he saw his lack as they remained without sin whereas he was afraid. If he was not a believer at that time he would not have been aware even that it was sinful to be afraid.

He says he was walking under law and grace, but an unsaved man cannot walk under grace at all. And in this early stage of a Christian walk, there is a lack of consistency in religious discipline and worship. It is up and down.

No doubt there are times for us all when there is a little oasis and a blessing here and there but it is when the power of sin has been broken, the power that breaks those things that we glibly call `our temperament` `our weakness` `our unfortunate experiences` which are merely an excuse for the sins we feel powerless over, that we understand what breaking the chains really means deeply and profoundly.

Of course we are grateful and ecstatic when we are first converted and are freed from gross sins of the flesh, but it is when we find things inside that we have no power over and which we fail repeatedly to stop like a temper for example that we really cry out in despair. It is when we are right back at the start of when we first knew Him that we are fee indeed.

blessings
Brenda



 2013/5/13 5:38
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Brenda

I am ready, I am aware of my condition, I have studied the scriptures and have read many books and testimonies and believe that God does do a deeper work in the believer after conversion that.

Over the last few months I have been urged to start surrendering my life, which I have started practising as I am aware God will want nothing less than a full surrender of myself to him and his will by faith...

Even last week I was thinking that I need to start seeking earnestly and thinking about the way I should go about seeking.

I was a bit reluctant to write on here but I decided to yield and humble myself.

Edit posted by mistake before I was ready to post..


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/5/13 21:20Profile









 Re: murrcolr

Dear Colin

It thrills my heart to hear those words.

The general advice is to be obedient up to light given, and some advise fasting. I would also add to this that many in charismatic circles who are seeking, have been exposed to an experience which is not Spirit Baptism and it is my light that this is interfering with the fulfillment of their desire for heart purity. Because of the deception involved, there is a problem with discernment and speaking in a language that is not understood, and which is notunder the control of the speaker, could be used by the enemy to stop the blessing. Yes I know that this idea is unacceptable to many, but I plead that there is nothing to lose by testing the spirits and ceasing tongue speaking to do so. As we are told to test the spirits (for good reason), there is no disobedience involved. I am not speaking against tongues generally, merely saying that this area is one which can be used by the enemy. I know a number of very urgent and sincere seekers who speak in tongues and nothing us happening for them, year in year out. There is a reason for this.

I am praying for you.

Brenda

 2013/5/14 6:21





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