Pilgrim777 wrote:

"Contrary to popular opinion, these verses do not contradict one another.

Pro_16:6 By mercy and truth INIQUITY is PURGED: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY.

Psa_4:4 Stand in awe, AND SIN NOT: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, AND SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Why do you think the Holy Spirit breathed these words to us?" END QUOTE

I do not know the intent of this post either. Also, is this another response to me. Brother, please read all my prior posts as it has been VERY clear that I and everyone on this thread CLEARLY believes the scriptures call the saints to holiness and to "SIN NOT." I noticed you have not posted often on this thread and you have not been involved until now, thank you for joining as I assume the Lord is leading you and you desire to encourage us to go on to maturity. Therefore, the question has been asked "how we can live without sin in a sin filled world?"

I was reminded recently of the following verses: "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." Also, another brother quoted from Boehme on "Christians Do Not Quarrel About Religion." This verse and the exhortation from Boehme is actually one of the reasons I do not post very often on SI and I wonder, again, what is the intent of your posts as I am not edified by them. For anyone to believe that a Christian lives in sin, I would question whether they were born again as the scripture clearly teaches that the one who is born again does not practice sin because His seed abides in them. However, and again, we are trying to bring this thread to a practical level and are hoping other saints with more spiritual maturity would post on how they are living a life without sin, are having fellowship with the Father and the Son and being one with them as the Father and the Son are One, being one with one another and laying down our life for one another, loving God and our neighbor as yourself.

Maybe our focus should be on the simplicity which is in Christ Jesus and returning to our first love. Maybe we are missing these simple truths because we are so focused on self and how to live a life above sin. May God the Holy Spirit be our judge and reveal those things which are hidden in our hearts, which must be laid aside and cleansed so we might be well pleasing to Him in all things.

I am getting a little weary of this thread as I am sure many others are as well. I have been alone in a country where I do not speak the language for over one month and I came to the SI forum to hopefully find some fellowship and encouragement from trusted brothers, may God receive the glory in everything we do, say or think.

"1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint" (1 Peter 4).

God have mercy on me! And May He break me and bring me to the end of myself. KM

....wrote this a few days ago already, in general terms, interestingly came to a confirming understanding:


Is our discernment based on 'we think so' - or on 'God said so'?

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is here introduced as the Comforter and the teacher that points back to Jesus. So both must be absolutely of the 'same Spirit and truth' or in other words both define truth based on the same standard as in John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. - What leaves no wiggle room for extra biblical spirits and strange doctrines. The Holy Spirit identifies with The Word and not surpasses or changes the words of God. The Spirit confirms the Word that confirms The Spirit.

To talk about discernment without having an absolute standard, you would have to base your discernment on your own understanding, not the words of God. That authority breach is the enemies playground. If we start the truth finding process with any denominational pre-text, like just for example with 'charismatic coloured sunglasses' we might find some errors within that context, but never the actual root of their cause. Faith is to believe and obey God and also trust in the integrity of Him, that cannot lie, that means His word is true, and the scriptures cannot be broken.

Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Hebrews 6:18  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Some people confuse themselves with theology that Jesus did not mean what he said, because the real gospel only started after his resurrection. What they don't realize is:

2 Peter 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

Revelation 19:10  ....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus took that in account already, his words were back then and are today the true and final word, because of the spirit of prophecy to be valid pre-season, in season and also after that, which is now. All of Paul's teachings are in conformity to that, there is no other gospel preached anywhere in the scriptures. We only can arrive at 'different doctrines' and different spirits by separating parts of scripture and shifting emphasis to single points where no emphasis was given in the greater context of the scriptures.

How do we prove any doctrine? John 7:16  Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Revealing, these ones that do his will shall know, or in other words those that believe/obey - act upon their faith - will get true discernment and will understand Jesus' teachings, that is actually the Fathers doctrine that sent him. So not only The Spirit confirms the Word, also The Word confirms The Father that sends The Spirit to confirm The Son. It's all a closed 'compatibility cycle', and that's the true context of all truth.

1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

original question; " A discussion on can a believer live without sin"

Before God by the Christ birthed in me I stand perfect in Him.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"Whereunto", a point in place or time which is already reached.


In The Flesh we must fight always, for sin croucheth at the door. Who will set us free?

Romans 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

delivered and quickened? Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall (((((deliver))))) me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In serving with the flesh the law of sin, we have an Advocate with the Father and; 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The faithfulness of God our Father because of The Son He has birthed in us, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse.

In Christ, we win, for Jesus said He won't loose any the Father has given Him. Only one, to fulfill the scriptures, Judas.

Phillip

_________________
Phillip

Saints:

From a historical perspective concerning the doctrine of entire sanctification and the holiness movement I found the following book titled: "OBJECTIONS TO ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION By H. A. BALDWIN." Please find the forward below and the link to the book (click on "Full View" to read the book), which is found at the end of the quote.

For me the doctrine and history of the holiness movement has always interested me. Hope some will glean from reading the documented accounts of the body in times past. In Christ's name, K&B

FOREWORD

"Although the following pages are for the most part argumentative, yet the writing has not been done with a view to contention. If no unholy man can see God in peace, the sooner unbelievers are convinced of the error of their unbelief the better it will be for them. We have written to convince. Those who will hew out their own broken cisterns and attempt to fill them with waters suitable to their own carnal likings will still find abundance of room for contention after they have read every argument that follows. This evil cannot be remedied.

But on the contrary some honest souls will be convinced. They are like the merchantman seeking goodly pearls, they will give all they have for the one pearl of great price. Honest heart, do you long for a rest as yet unattained? Do you thirst for a drink from some cooling spring? Then Jesus says:-- “Come unto me and drink,” and, “I will give you rest.” A Sabbath of rest from the sin of your soul, a blessed Sabbath that never will end. “Draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith.”

I have quoted freely from widely different sources always giving due credit in the proper place. With a prayer that God may bless our humble effort to the good of all who read, this little book is sent on its mission. It does not profess to be beyond criticism, it makes no pretensions to literary merit, but the author sincerely desires that before it is lost altogether in the mighty sea of greater things that is flooding the literary world someone may be blest and led to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world" (H. A. B.).

Link to the book: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008623707

Can a believer live without sin?

"There is enough sin in my best prayer to send the whole world to Hell." ~ John Bunyan

An answer to this dilemma from Ambrose -

Christ’s prayer takes away the sins of our prayers. As a child that is willing to present his father with a posy [a small bunch of flowers], goes into the garden, and there gathers some flowers and some weeds together, but coming to his mother, she picks out the weeds and binds the flowers, and so it is presented to the father: thus when we have put up our prayers, Christ comes, and picks away the weeds, the sin of our prayer, and presents nothing but flowers to His Father, which are a sweet-smelling savour.

More from Bunyan -

But I do find many weaknesses in every duty that I do perform, as when I pray, when I read, when I hear, or any other duty, that it maketh me out of conceit with myself, it maketh me think that my duties are nothing worth.

I answer, it may be it is thy mercy that thou art sensible of infirmities in thy best things thou doest; ay, a greater mercy than thou art aware of.

Can it be a mercy for me to be troubled with my corruptions? Can it be a privilege for me to be annoyed with my infirmities, and to have my best duties infected with it? How can it possibly be?

Answ. Verily, thy sins appearing in thy best duties, do work for thy advantage these ways—

1. In that thou findest ground enough thereby to make thee humble; and when thou hast done all, yet to count thyself but an unprofitable servant. And,

2. Thou by this means art taken off from leaning on anything below a naked Jesus for eternal life. It is like, if thou wast not sensible of many by-thoughts and wickednesses in thy best performances, thou wouldst go near to be some proud, abominable hypocrite, or a silly, proud dissembling wretch at the best, such an one as would send thy soul to the devil in a bundle of thy own righteousness.

But now, thou, through grace, seest that in all and everything thou doest there is sin enough in it to condemn thee. This, in the first place, makes thee have a care of trusting in thy own doings; and, secondly, showeth thee that there is nothing in thyself which will do thee any good by working in thee, as to the meritorious cause of thy salvation. No; but thou must have a share in the birth of Jesus, in the death of Jesus, in the blood, resurrection, ascension, and intercession of a crucified Jesus. And how sayest thou? Doth not thy finding of this in thee cause thee to fly from a depending on thy own doings? And doth it not also make thee more earnestly to groan after the Lord Jesus?

Yea, and let me tell thee also, it will be a cause to make thee admire the freeness and tender heartedness of Christ to thee, when He shall lift up the light of His countenance upon thee, because He hath regarded such an one as thou, sinful thou; and therefore, in this sense, it will be mercy to the saints that they do find the relics of sin still struggling in their hearts. But this is not simply the nature of sin, but the mercy and wisdom of God, who causeth all things to work together for the good of those that love and fear God (Rom 8). And, therefore, whatever thou findest in thy soul, though it be sin of never so black a soul-scarring nature, let it move thee to run the faster to the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt not be ashamed—that is, of thy running to Him.

But when thou dost apprehend that thou art defiled, and also thy best duties annoyed with many weaknesses, let that Scripture come into thy thoughts which saith, "Of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"; and if thou shalt understand that, what thou canst not find in thyself thou shalt find in Christ. Art thou a fool in thyself? then Christ is made of God thy wisdom. Art thou unrighteous in thyself? Christ is made of God thy righteousness. Dost thou find that there is but very little sanctifying grace in thy soul? still here is Christ made thy sanctification; and all this in His own Person without thee, without thy wisdom, without thy righteousness, without thy sanctification, without in His own Person in thy Father's presence, appearing there perfect wisdom, righteousness, and sanctification in His own Person; I say, as a public Person for thee; so that thou mayest believe, and say to thy soul, My soul, though dost find innumerable infirmities in thyself, and in thy actions, yet look upon thy Jesus, the Man Jesus; He is wisdom, and that for thee, to govern thee, to take care for thee, and to order all things for the best for thee.

He is also thy righteousness now at God's right hand, always shining before the eyes of His glory; so that there it is unmoveable, though thou art in never such a sad condition, yet thy righteousness, which is the Son of God, God-man, shines as bright as ever, and is as much accepted of God as ever. O this sometimes hath been life to me; and so, whatever thou, O my soul, findest wanting in thyself, through faith thou shalt see all laid up for thee in Jesus Christ, whether it be wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, or redemption.

Nay, not only so, but, as I said before, He is all these in His own Person without thee in the presence of His Father for thee. - John Bunyan