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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

I am ok with parents having faith for themselves and others (children), but in the same way, I do not support condemning other Christians for seeking medical assistance for THEIR children because they "do not have enough faith."

Because the people that condemn others for "not having enough faith", are usually not doing too well, themselves.

If a true word from God has not been given to us and faith is not in our heart regarding the situation we find ourselves in, it will be more tragic if we start living by the letter because of condemnation from other groups.

Better to just fall on the mercy of God and tell Him you lack the faith that others say you SHOULD have. There is no condemnation with being real and honest before the Lord.

Building a church or ministry on one particular teaching is already a problem.

 2013/4/28 11:50Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

I found this link which proves once again what we are seeing is a growing problem in the USA.

http://www.news10.net/news/article/242734/2/Sacramento-couple-fights-to-get-their-baby-boy-back-from-authorities


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Sandra Miller

 2013/4/28 17:40Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

I personaly have not come to the conclusion that I would say that something like peneciline is a sin (even though I do believe some vaccines are morally wrong).

But I have respect for these parents.
many may say well their faith alone did not work, But lets think about this, these parents where brought up this way, undoubtly many many times thru out their life they probably could testify of Gods power to heal.

We see thru a glass darkly, lets be slow to judge and quick to show compassion

I will add this also,.. from their church website I do not get an impression that their entire church is built on this one Idea, but just one belief amoung others.
I again encourage all to visit the link that I posted to their church website and see if you find anything significantly heretic from a biblical perspective.

If these are brethren than we should naturally have a unction of compassion for them, if we do not and they are true brethren, than their is something wrong with us!

To claim them heratic because they felt a conviction not to use medicine would be to also claim preachers presented on SI like Smith Wigglesworth also as heratic whom said:

“From henceforth no medicine, no doctors, no drugs of any kind shall come into our house.” It is very easy when in health and strength to make pledges and utter vows, but it is being faithful when the time of testing comes that counts. Little did we know that shortly we were going to have such a test." - Smith Wigglesworth

We do not know what God is trying to show them nor us. But Lets not be as Jobs friends and speculate into those things that we do not know!








 2013/4/28 18:56Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 sad indeed

I grew up in Christ in an assembly of saints in Indiana a good many years ago(30 or so) where a few family s had children die while they believed the Lord for healing, these saints went to prison for those infant deaths. I guess its a matter of ones personal faith and conscience before God. I have observed in scripture some insight, like the woman with the blood issue, she had spent all that she had with no cure, she touched Jesus and was healed,discovered, than sent away in peace.Jesus did not condemn her for using the Doctors of her time.
In the years that have followed I have often reflected back on those days. I saw so many powerful things happen that can only be explained by "It had to have been the hand of God", type of explanations, however in the midst of such wonderful things, children died while entire congregations and parents of these precious children believed that God based on His Word would bring healing.
I think what that lead me to conclude for my own household was a certain set of rules that I went by.If I have faith I have it to myself, so in matters of Life and death for myself, it was in the Lord s hands, for my children? We always taught healing but never forced it on them and felt that part of our duty before God was to do all we could to provide mercy for our children. There came a few times when our children as they were growing up concluded that they needed to stand in faith and trust the Lord for themselves and in thoughs times the Lord did bring healing and it was a wonderful testimony to our children individually.My wife and I have always tried to lead by example and employ the rule "follow me", the same as Jesus did.I could write a book on this entire subject matter but wont. The wisdom of God is.....and I have found where God is silent in a specific circumstance...if I have no wisdom..can taste none of wisdom's fruit..than depending on the time frame or circumstances.plain old horse sense is the rule of thumb.
I do believe that these parents are Christians and that they need our prayers, love and support. This is indeed a sorrowful circumstance and very troubling. It does show the power of the government and its reach into our very lives, which should acts as a wake-up call to many. With the future of health care becoming the law of the land we will see played out just what other freedoms we have lost in the days ahead.


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D.Miller

 2013/4/28 23:30Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re: sad indeed

Thank you for your testimony dohzman. I am aware of a large ministry in Indiana in the 70s and 80s that had a wonderful elder/teacher. I really loved his writings and still do. They had a lot of controversy with kids dying for lack of medical care. The leader of this group also died because he refused medical care, believing God would heal him. These things are really very difficult and yes we should show compassion and love. I appreciate proudpapa's stance, too. I am glad that this other thing that happened recently is not a result of a ministry built on eschewing medical help as from the Devil.

There is not a whole lot to say about these things.

Best just to let time go by and observe the fruit that came out of it.

Wisdom is usually vindicated by her children.

Pilgrim

 2013/4/29 1:06Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Learning and discerning today, with lessons from the past.
http://www.yesteryear.clunette.com/faithassembly1.html

I had obtained several books in 1980 from Hobart Freeman and I still have them today. I have been blessed by much of his teaching, but could never reconcile the deaths of 90 people in his congregation, because they refused medicine or medical aid saying it was all from the Devil. This was tragic and preventable.

Two weeks before this matter was to come to court, Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by an ulcerated gangrenous leg, which in the weeks preceding had forced him to preach sitting down. He had refused all medical help, even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be cleaned.

Previously in Faith for Healing, Freeman had said that "To claim healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is not following our faith with corresponding action ... When genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it will take the place of medicines and other aids."

Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. He was buried in a pine box with no public viewing and no graveside or memorial service. For many months afterwards, his wife left his suit over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and have need of it.

In May 1983, the Chicago Tribune ran a story on David Gilmore whose 15-month-old son, Dustin Graham, had died five years previously from an easily treatable form of meningitis. Following church teaching, Gilmore and his wife had relied solely on prayer for their son's healing. Gilmore said he knew of twelve other children who had died under similar circumstances. The Tribune further identified fifty-two deaths from Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and Kentucky which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching. A few months later, ABC television's Nightline reported that pregnant women following church teaching died at a rate eight times the national average and their children at three times. Nightline further identified nineteen states and five countries where deaths had occurred which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching.

Eventually, Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting one of these deaths by what was described as "negligent homicide". At least ninety members of the congregation died during Freeman's ministry,[39] which Daniel McConnell described as tragic and preventable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart_Freeman

Many former members of the Glory Barn still meet online at overcomersonline.com

 2013/4/29 1:53Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5638
NC, USA

 Re:

I think we have to have laws about such things. To me it has nothing to do with "persecuting believers."

If an adult believer wants to forego medical treatment for their own illness, that is their choice. When it comes to necessary medical care that is readily available for a very ill child, I do not believe they should simply be allowed to make that decision for the child. I am not saying this applies to all areas of a child's life (obviously) but when it is a matter of life and death I believe they must avail themselves of medical help. When the child becomes an adult, they can make that decision for themselves.

I personally believe in this case that Jesus was yelling "get the child to a doctor" but the call was not heeded. It is not fair to state that since the child died it was the Lord's will, and would have died even if medical treatment had been sought. That is a cop out position. We are to be people of faith, but also people with common sense. I have heard many testimonies of doctors and nurses coming to Jesus because of the strong witness of a believer that seeks their services.

I wonder if these people take their car to a mechanic when it breaks down, or simply pray that the transmission will be miraculously restored?


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Todd

 2013/4/29 9:24Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: :/

I have seen so many things, where do I start, I now live in Ohio, and was on a business trip in St. Louis Mo. when my van broke down, I had to have it towed to the complex where I was to setup for a Sportsman Show and sell products for the next 3 days, This was a Thursday afternoon when it was towed to the complex.Not knowing what to do I simply prayed and unloaded the van and asked another vendor who I knew if they could give me a ride back and forth to the complex every day. I didn't know what else to do so I just worked, to be sure I did cry out to Jesus for His help. Sunday morning the Lord woke me with a song from the psalms, it was a promise of deliverance. I knew it would be fine. I worked all day Sunday and afterwards loaded the van and laid my hands on the engine and got in the van, it started right up and I drove it home and the next day straight to my mechanics shop where he said everything inside the motor was completely gone and that it was impossible for my van to even be running.I cant explain it, it didn't make sense, however, The Lord brought me home as He promised...I didn't need to fill up with gas but once and that was 45 mins from home and that was because I couldn't understand why the gas gauge never moved.
As to Jesus yelling at these folks to get their children to a doctor, I can not answer that.I can say that in all things the Lord is just and righteous, if the parents missed God, that's between them and Him. As for a mechanic? Done it both ways, it seems the Lord enjoys surprising us with just how diverse He can be, sometimes He may send an angel to just push ya down the road to where you need to be.:) blessings


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D.Miller

 2013/4/29 12:58Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I dust off Freeman s books and read them again every now and than:)


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D.Miller

 2013/4/29 13:02Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

I liked your post about the engine, dohzman. And yes, I don't want new laws to regulate parenthood. As you say, it is between the parents and Jesus. It seems every new "catastrophe" today, invites more and more of Babylonian (as Hezwelling said) control in our lives.

Freeman had a lot of great teachings and it just goes to show that we cannot codify the scriptures into theological systems. They don't bring life. Only the Spirit gives life. We, each one of us, need to hear His voice and act upon it, only, not men's.

I also find it quite interesting how a lot of spiritual movements came or come out of Indiana. But, that's another thread.

Pilgrim

 2013/4/29 13:12Profile





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