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jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Impartation

Where to start....well, first Todd, I see you are hungry for God to do something in your life. That's good, but also there are many things seeking to steal that hunger and lead it into deception. This is a hard post, but I must write what I feel is the truth. I see you are being lead into deception.

Todd wrote: "I had never heard of this guy before except maybe that he was somehow connected with the renewal in Toronto."

Reply: You are correct in a BIG way. He was connected with the very beginnings of the false revival in Toronto:
"On January 6, 1994, he(Randy Clark) was a guest speaker at the Toronto Airport Vineyard (now Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship). With about 120 people in attendance for a four-day revival meeting, what a secular reporter later called the Toronto Blessing 'fell.'"

A little history about Randy Clark:

Quote:

Rodney Howard-Browne came to this country from South Africa and brought the Anointing with him. He began speaking at various churches where he dispensed it like alcohol, calling himself ''God's Bartender'' while enthusiastically encouraging spiritual drunkenness.

"Randy Clark," a Vineyard pastor, received the Anointing from Howard-Browne at Kenneth Hagin's Rhema church. "Clark" then brought the Anointing to the Toronto Vineyard church and imparted it to the pastor, John Arnott. The Toronto church then dedicated itself to spreading the Anointing, and thus it became dubbed ''The Toronto Blessing.''

...Incredibly, within the Toronto Blessing Movement and the Pensacola Outpouring some people refer to worship songs as "drinking songs." Rodney Howard-Browne, credited with bringing the Holy Laughter Movement to America, calls himself the "Holy Ghost Bartender." Randy Clark, during whose meetings the Toronto Blessing Movement started, called himself a "Bartender at Joel's Place" - a reference to the new wine promised in Joel 2:24



Todd wrote: "Never heard about "imparting" stuff before."

Here is the complete article, from which I used for the history of Randy Clark, on "imparting" and it's roots:
Quote:

The Anointing's Lineage
Rodney Howard-Browne came to this country from South Africa and brought the Anointing with him. He began speaking at various churches where he dispensed it like alcohol, calling himself ''God's Bartender'' while enthusiastically encouraging spiritual drunkenness.
Randy Clark, a Vineyard pastor, received the Anointing from Howard-Browne at Kenneth Hagin's Rhema church. Clark then brought the Anointing to the Toronto Vineyard church and imparted it to the pastor, John Arnott. The Toronto church then dedicated itself to spreading the Anointing, and thus it became dubbed ''The Toronto Blessing.''
Tens of thousands of visitors from all over the world, including a large proportion of pastors and church leaders of all denominations, have now traveled to Toronto to receive the Anointing and take it back to their home churches, where they distribute it to all they can.
John Arnott laid hands on Sandy Millar of Holy Trinity Church, in Brompton, England, who laid hands on Steve Hill, who laid hands on pastor John Kilpatrick.
Hill and Kilpatrick are of the Brownsville Assembly of God, Pensacola, FL. (Kilpatrick's wife had also traveled to Toronto and had hands laid on her by John Arnott.) As at Toronto, the Brownsville church then dedicated itself to dispensing the Anointing. Thus began the so-called ''Pensacola Outpouring'' which has drawn 2 million or more visitors since its beginning on June 18, 1995, who, likewise, come to receive the Anointing and take it back with them to impart to others. They call this process ''cross-pollination'' - like bees go out and pick up pollen, they 'pick up' the Anointing and carry it back to their 'hives.'
The Anointing is spreading through the church like a virus out of control. I recently read of a principal of a Christian school who visited Pensacola, brought the Anointing back, and was holding special assemblies to impart it to as many students as could be coerced into receiving it.
Every single person who receives the Toronto Blessing can trace it back to Rodney Howard-Browne and Kenneth Hagin's ''Rhema'' (Word-Faith) church.
Howard-Browne and Hagin are both leaders in the outrageously heretical 'Word of Faith' movement, or Word-Faith for short, better known as the ''health, wealth, and prosperity'' gospel. The Word-Faith movement teaches that we can 'speak things into existence' such as money, possessions, position, if our words are accompanied by enough ''faith'' that they will occur. Our Words + Our Faith = Results.
They teach that if we speak things with enough faith, God is obligated to grant our desires, and that this is a ''law of faith'' that can be accessed by anyone, including non-believers. And, they teach the reverse also - the Almighty God cannot help us until we speak.
They also teach that Jesus and the disciples were rich, that believers are equal to Jesus Christ, that Jesus was not God when He was on earth, that His death on the cross was not sufficient to redeem us- His shed blood did NOT cleanse us from our sins, but rather, He had to go to Hell and be tortured by Satan and the demons in order to earn our redemption! (Please see Heb 10:29) ...and many other blasphemous and bizarre beliefs.
The fact that must be faced is that the spirit of the Toronto Blessing came forth out of this spiritual environment. Receivers of the Toronto Blessing may not be aware of or accept its heresies, but they are inviting the spiritual power identified with the Word-Faith movement into themselves when they receive the Impartation.



Here is another "prophetic" event that took place at Toronto Christian Airport Felloswhip:
Quote:

When Randy Clark announced his sermon title, "The Making of a Warrior," the Spirit fell powerfully on many people and especially on Carol Arnott. For about twenty minutes, while on the floor, she was slashing violently with a two handed sword in her hands (her hands together as if holding a sword). After Randy finished his message, she got up and powerfully delivered the following prophecy:

"This is My sword, this is not man's sword, this is My golden sword. The ways you have been using My weapons, the methods that you have been using in the past, you are to throw them away because I am giving you My sword now and the old ways of doing things will not do. The old methods will not be acceptable to Me anymore because I am doing a new thing. Do not look to the yesterdays but look to the future because I am doing a new thing and this new way is not the old. This new way is new and you must throw away the old ways of doing things and take up My sword because My sword is made of pure gold and is purer and is mighty. If you wield it the captives will be set free, the chains will be broken and the healings will be manifest because it will not be by might, nor by power, but by My wonderful Holy Spirit. It is by Him, it is by Him that this new wave will be brought forth, it is by Him that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords will ride again. In this next wave I am requiring those who take up this golden sword to be refined, to be pure, to have all the dross refined in the fire because if you take this sword and there is secret sin in your life this sword will kill you. This next wave is no joke. It is not a laughing matter. All those who do not want to give up their sin and are fearful, like Gideon's men, stand back, because I am calling men and women in these next days that will allow me to refine them, that will allow me to chasten, but not with anger because I am a loving God. I am a God full of mercy but I am serious as the time is short. The bridegroom is most anxious for His bride, so those of you that will, let Me refine you and come and take up that golden sword for I will use you in ways, I will use you in ways that you can't imagine, but I must purify you first."

This prophecy was given by Carol Arnott at the Third Anniversay Meeting of the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, January 20, 1997.



Here is part of that prophecy: "The ways you have been using My weapons, the methods that you have been using in the past, you are to throw them away because I am giving you My sword now and the old ways of doing things will not do. The old methods will not be acceptable to Me anymore because I am doing a new thing. Do not look to the yesterdays but look to the future because I am doing a new thing and this new way is not the old."

Jeremiah 6:16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ANCIENT paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, "We will not walk in it." (NIV)

Has God changed His mind?

Todd, I don't want to make you angry or try to just turn this into an argument where no one will win, but there is so much more out there than what these men can give you. These men have been robbed of the truth and are trapped in false subjective experiences at the expense of their own souls, and any other who goes their way. Seek God in His word. He rewards those who dilligently seek Him. But remember the warnings of Jesus to beware of false prophets.

Some excellent sermons on this site to listen about this subject are:
Carter Conlon's "Ministers Of Laciviousness" He deals extensively with the "Toronto Blessing."
Carter Conon's "Run For Your Life." I pray that you listen to this one.

Todd wrote: ""You can't run from your calling," and with that he gently tapped me on the chest and moved on. I believe that was right from God. It spoke right to my situation. How did he know? It was a word for me."

I would suggest Carter Conlon's sermon: "Wolves"

I hope and pray you take this to heart and consider what I have written. I don't want you to feel that I am attacking you, I am just concerned for you.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

Here are the links to the messages:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2251]Ministers Of Laciviousness[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1724]Run For Your Life[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2158]Wolves[/url]

If you're lost and wondering where this post started, follow this link to the original thread:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=477&forum=44&14]Jesus in Brazil: Prologue[/url]


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/23 16:29Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Impartation

What if a couple of us took some time to listen to Pastor Conlon to find out what he has to say for the sake of bringing forth some gold, something from Heaven.
Does the Holy Spirit allow himself to be mastered by men?
Is he not sent to bring man to maturity through a thorough work of the cross of Christ?


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/9/23 16:37Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37633
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Does the Holy Spirit allow himself to be mastered by men?


Lars, that really hit me when I read it! The Holy Spirit is not a power to be attained and used by man! It's God who indwells us and uses us accordingly to His will. These passages were brought to my attention today:

Quote:
"But the egyptain [b]magicians did the same things by their secret arts[/b], and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said." - Exodus 7:22

"But the [b]magicians did the same things by their secret arts[/b]; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt." - Exodus 8:6



The egyptian magicians did the same extraorinary miricales that Moses and Aaron did from the Power of God. Moses and Aaron were directed by God for a reason to exhibit these powers which were not from themselves at all or any of there power. But the magicians willfully copied these miricales by a power that they have harnassed from the devil presumably.


Quote:
"When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money and said, '[b]Give me also this ability[/b] so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may recieve the Holy Spirit'." - Acts 8:18-19



Covetousness and the seeking of glory at length remove the hypocrites from their dens.
[i]from geneva[/i]

We have to be so carefull that we are not seeking to recieve from God for our own ego and our own fulfilment. Its all about God, everything we do! When a man that represents God recieves more attention then God Himself, then something is amiss!

Quote:
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.
[i]from Roberston's[/i]



How attractive is the visible manifestations of power to the carnal nature and mind. The focus is on 'Christ crucified' this is the message and power of the gospel to change lives. Regeneration is the most blessed of all God's graces. All gifts are passing but Salvation alone goes on.

Quote:
"You have no part of share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God." - Acts 8:21



Let us search our hearts, intentions, and motives before God!


This has really given me alot to think about:

[b]"The Spirit is a foretaste of Glory (heaven) not the excercise of gifts, all the gifts will one day pass away but the giver of the gifts will stay."[/b]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/9/23 20:06Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re: Impartation

I hope that I am able to clarify some things here. There are so many details that misrepresent people and ideas that it seems it would take volumes to really clarify. But let me at least try to address some specific points to start with.

Quote:
"That's good, but also there are many things seeking to steal that hunger and lead it into deception."

I believe you are correct here and I also believe it is wise to keep this in mind. However, I am going impart more trust in the Holy SPirit to lead me into all truth than in the devil to deceive me. I appreciate your prayers in this area.

Quote:
"I see you are being lead into deception."

Could you be wrong?

I have a strong conviction, based on experience, that internet research is very dangerous. I have been mislead many times in the past using this route of research. It is very attractive to lazy and hasty researchers (as I used to be) because access is so easy. Internet research is like one of those very strong powers that has potential for both great gain and great harm (such as atomic energy). It also makes it even less necessary to get personally involved and reach out to real people to get at truth. It can all be done in the privacy and cowardice of your own home. You can get pulled into fantasy land where you develop all kinds of theories, but the foundations are very weak.

I also must comment on the sloppy and biased research methods I commonly come across in regards to these things. This problem has exploded with the rise of the internet because people no longer need to present quality work or have much guts to have a big platform.

Until you have been misrepresented and experienced how easily it can happen, you may not be as sympathetic in this area as is necessary for righteous judgement. I believe the principle that we must be both quick to hear and slow to speak and get angry in order to discern correctly.

When we see such clearly biased statments such as this...

"The Anointing is spreading through the church like a virus out of control. I recently read of a principal of a Christian school who visited Pensacola, brought the Anointing back, and was holding special assemblies to impart it to as many students as could be coerced into receiving it."

...we must be very careful. Clearly the author has an agenda and while what he is saying may be true to some degree, the information is very likely to be distorted and things are being misrepresented.

In my experience I have found that the greatest error of the lazy thinker is overgeneralization. Here's a good way to spot this problem. You will see many inclusive words such as "they" when referring to a large group instead of more forgiving words like "some." Many general claims will be made concerning a group. Here's a prime example:

" Howard-Browne and Hagin are both leaders in the outrageously heretical 'Word of Faith' movement, or Word-Faith for short, better known as the ''health, wealth, and prosperity'' gospel. The Word-Faith movement teaches that we can 'speak things into existence' such as money, possessions, position, if our words are accompanied by enough ''faith'' that they will occur. Our Words + Our Faith = Results.
They teach that if we speak things with enough faith, God is obligated to grant our desires, and that this is a ''law of faith'' that can be accessed by anyone, including non-believers. And, they teach the reverse also - the Almighty God cannot help us until we speak.
They also teach that Jesus and the disciples were rich, that believers are equal to Jesus Christ, that Jesus was not God when He was on earth, that His death on the cross was not sufficient to redeem us- His shed blood did NOT cleanse us from our sins, but rather, He had to go to Hell and be tortured by Satan and the demons in order to earn our redemption! (Please see Heb 10:29) ...and many other blasphemous and bizarre beliefs."

Does every single person who is considered to be in the "Word-Faith" camp believe all of these things?

I am constantly amazed by how quickly people will judge these movements and people with such minimal research, patience, and especially love (and especially hope as it pertains to love). In fact, it seems that loving hope is often not even in the equation. We don't give the benefit of the doubt, and with our biases we take the stand of "guily until proven innocent" instead of "innocent until proven guilty." This is unjust and unrightoues judgement.

Ok, let me get specific again.

Quote:
" Jeremiah 6:16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ANCIENT paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, "We will not walk in it." (NIV)

Has God changed His mind?"

There are some problems here. First, was this prophecy meant for the universal church body or for those who were present? Second, has anyone asked Carol how she understands Jeremiah 6:16? If yes, what is her understanding? If no, then wouldn't it be just to withold further judgement until we hear her defense? Three, does this verse necessarily apply to us today? Yes, one may take it that way, but is it clear? Could it have been a word for those people at that time? Who has the authority to make an absolute claim here?

It also be very helpful to reference any sources being used, especially internet. I have found it enlightening to try and dialoge with the folks who have written articles on the internet.

 2003/9/23 23:57Profile
Jason
Member



Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138


 Re:

Todd, here are some videos to watch from meetings in Toronto and Brownsville, as well as some from Rodney Howard Browne, etc.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

(For all who see this, the webhost for these videos is a stanchly cessationist site -- do not expect a very sound analysis of these teachings from this site. At the same time, the quotes are accurate and the videos are real. They also make an error in one of the Browne videos where they mistakenly identify Gerald Coates when it is another pastor. I should also add that these videos are not for the squeamish -- they will make any believer sick to his stomach.)

Secondly, beware of anyone who claims to have the ability to "impart" something at his own volition. As Derek Prince has written:

"In recent years we have seen a whole succession of charismatic personalities who have ended in disaster for the simple reason that they allowed their followers to put them on a pedestal. The Lord is a jealous God. He has said, "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 48:11). [Jason's note: George Warnock and I have discussed this point in the past as well; he has said the same as Dr. Prince in this matter.]

Another danger that threatens those who minister in the supernatural realm is the temptation to use spiritual gifts to manipulate or exploit or dominate people. At one period in my ministry I found myself casting spirits of witchcraft out of church­going people. Eventually I asked the Lord to show me the true nature of witchcraft.

I believe that the Lord gave me the following definition: Witchcraft is the attempt to control people and get them to do what you want by the use of any spirit that is not the Holy Spirit.

After I had digested this, the Lord added: And if anyone has a spirit that he can use, it is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, and no one uses God.

Today, I tremble inwardly when I see or hear of a person who claims that he has spiritual gifts which he is free to use just as he pleases. It is surely no accident that some of those who have made such claims have ended in serious doctrinal error."

(Taken rom the article "Uproar in the Church," by Dr. Prince.)

Todd, I know that so long as we are walking in the Spirit we are protected from deception. However, I also know that we are warned not to be "deceived by hollow philosophy" or "the elementary principles of this world." Consider that Scripture was written to Spirit-filled believers and how many warnings are given against being led astray and deceived (there are many). We would be wise to heed these warnings.

 2003/9/24 2:01Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I have watched many of those videos in the past. I feel they largely misrepresent what is going on. I don't really have a problem with most of what I have seen. Some of it I don't really "like", i mean, I wouldn't choose for it to be that way, but I make sure not to be offended. Isn't it the carnal mind that judges outward appearances?

I was somewhat surprised to hear Tom, one of the other preachers on the trip, describe his experience with some of the manifestations. He said that there was a time when he really didn't like the laughter at all. But he was at Toronto and asking God for a sign to confirm something (I can't remember all the details) when all of the sudden he started laughing from the depths of his being. God told him, "The very thing you have despised has become a sign to you."

I get the impression that these strange and mysterious manifestations are not really even liked by many in the movement. But if it's God you don't want to be offended, and you also want to stay open to the possiblity. Who knows what it's going to look like when God meets flesh? There's no manual that says what it's going to look like. Yes, we have a few examples in the Bible, but the Bible makes no claims to be exhaustive concerning this phenomenon.

Quote:
"they will make any believer sick to his stomach.)"

If this is true you are saying that I am not a believer. I think you most definately are offended and therefore unable to make fair judgements in this area. Are you judging by appearance?

Quote:
"And if anyone has a spirit that he can use, it is not the Holy Spirit"

I think we might be getting confused over defintions here. I don't think Randy would claim to be able to "use" to Holy Spirit. I think he understands that it is the Holy SPirit working through him. More like he is being used. It makes sense to me that when you are poured into you can pour out. ANd he doesn't claim that he can impart whatever he wants to whomever he wants. He just does what the Lord tells him to. Sometimes people receive a powerful impartation, sometimes not. He does his part and GOd does His. How do you explain things like Paul's laying on of hands and the prayer rag. You might call that "using" God but that term seems very negative.

Quote:
"Today, I tremble inwardly when I see or hear of a person who claims that he has spiritual gifts which he is free to use just as he pleases. It is surely no accident that some of those who have made such claims have ended in serious doctrinal error."

This seems different. Here we are talking about gifts. I don't know about this one. The "just as he pleases" is unclear to me. I wonder who makes such a claim. It would not match with what I have experienced with Randy Clark's ministry.

Quote:
"Consider that Scripture was written to Spirit-filled believers and how many warnings are given against being led astray and deceived (there are many). We would be wise to heed these warnings."

Excellent point. We are in agreement here.

 2003/9/24 2:49Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Todd Wrote: "I have a strong conviction, based on experience, that internet research is very dangerous. I have been mislead many times in the past using this route of research. It is very attractive to lazy and hasty researchers (as I used to be) because access is so easy. Internet research is like one of those very strong powers that has potential for both great gain and great harm (such as atomic energy). It also makes it even less necessary to get personally involved and reach out to real people to get at truth. It can all be done in the privacy and cowardice of your own home. You can get pulled into fantasy land where you develop all kinds of theories, but the foundations are very weak."

Reply: There are many sites on the net that are questionable and more concerned with their point of view being superior to those of the cults than with having a correct Theology. Since I am not "lazy" or a "coward" I have learned which sites are the best ones, and which sites are concerned more with their own opinion and which ones are concerned about the truth.

When I research a cult, like TACF*, I use the christian database site: www.apologeticsindex.org Here is an explanation of the purpose of their site off of their homepage:
Apologetics Index (apologeticsindex.org, countercult.com, cultfaq.org) provides research resources on religious cults, sects, new religious movements, alternative religions, apologetics-, anticult-, and countercult organizations, doctrines, religious practices and world views. These resources reflect a variety of theological and/or sociological perspectives. The site provides information that helps equip Christians to logically present and defend the Christian faith, and that aids non-Christians in their comparison of various religious claims. Issues addressed range from spiritual and cultic abuse to contemporary theological and/or sociological concerns. AI also includes ex-cult support resources, up-to-date religion news (ReligionNewsBlog.com), articles on Christian life and ministry, and a variety of other features.

This site is recognized as a reputable site and is accepted as a proper research web page for use in Seminaries by both students and teachers. All of their material is able to be checked, and those whose teachings they expose, are always used in context.

Quote:
" Howard-Browne and Hagin are both leaders in the outrageously heretical 'Word of Faith' movement, or Word-Faith for short, better known as the ''health, wealth, and prosperity'' gospel. The Word-Faith movement teaches that we can 'speak things into existence' such as money, possessions, position, if our words are accompanied by enough ''faith'' that they will occur. Our Words + Our Faith = Results.
They teach that if we speak things with enough faith, God is obligated to grant our desires, and that this is a ''law of faith'' that can be accessed by anyone, including non-believers. And, they teach the reverse also - the Almighty God cannot help us until we speak.
They also teach that Jesus and the disciples were rich, that believers are equal to Jesus Christ, that Jesus was not God when He was on earth, that His death on the cross was not sufficient to redeem us- His shed blood did NOT cleanse us from our sins, but rather, He had to go to Hell and be tortured by Satan and the demons in order to earn our redemption! (Please see Heb 10:29) ...and many other blasphemous and bizarre beliefs."

Does every single person who is considered to be in the "Word-Faith" camp believe all of these things?



Well, you just briefly spelled out the foundational beliefs of the Word/Faith movement. To be apart of a movement or be considered in it's fold you would have to hold to it's doctrine. To be apart of something, yet refuse its doctrine is to be a rebel in your own group. Now, how do Bible believing Christians get caught into something like this. It doesn't happen overnight: But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will SECRETLY bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2Peter 2:1

A good example is Kenneth Copeland. He has said that he could of died for our sins if he had the faith that Jesus had. How did he get Bible believing Christians to go for this? Not all at once. He slowly (secretly) introduced his doctrines. If he would have mad such a claim in the early 70's his minisry would have been shut down long ago.

Now how are they able to deceive Christians like this: Many Christians don't know their BIble. They see one healing, or a directive prophecy that seems right on to them, or a false sign and they are convinced, not by the truth, but by a lying sign or wonder. The claim to the miraculous along with ignorance of the scriptures makes a person a prime target: Having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing UNSTABLE souls...2Peter 2:14a

The whole context of chapter two of Peter is false teaching so the speaking of adultery here can be taken to mean spiritual adultery.

People may come into the Church and be real Christians, but if proper growth doesn't occur, then they become candidates for deception. Many of the epistles deal with the problem of false teaching carrying away true believers: For if, afterthey have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them that the beginning. For it would have been better for them no to have known it, to turn from the holy commmandment delivered to them. 2Peter 2:20,21 This verse in the context of 2nd Peter is not talking about just falling into a sin or backsliding. It is speaking of being entrapped in a false teaching and following another Jesus. "For it would have been better for them no to have known it, to turn from the holy commmandment delivered to them." A person caught in false teaching is harder to reach than a person who is just a heathen. Carter Conlon speaks of this in his sermon "Ministers of Laciviousness."

Can a false prophet work a miracle, give a prophecy that comes true, or work a sign. You better believe it: "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deut. 13:1-3)

What if they preach Jesus Christ? "And Jesus answered and said to them: 'Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will com "in My name," saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.'" Matthew 24:4,5

"But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity form those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of ight. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." 2Cor. 11:12-15

Quote:
I am constantly amazed by how quickly people will judge these movements and people with such minimal research, patience, and especially love (and especially hope as it pertains to love). In fact, it seems that loving hope is often not even in the equation. We don't give the benefit of the doubt, and with our biases we take the stand of "guily until proven innocent" instead of "innocent until proven guilty." This is unjust and unrightoues judgement.



Well, these movements didn't just pop up yesterday. They have been around for a long time, and have provided a wealth of teaching to be judged. Their teachings have had much time to be weighed and considered against the word of God. To call this unjust and unrighteous judgement is nothing more than an ad homenem and a straw man tactic. One brother, whom I love in the Lord, has been posting that we be careful not to fall into the spirit of a pharisee. (I thank you for your kindness Beaux, and have taken what you have said to heart) But even with the wrong spirit of the pharisees, Jesus was still able to tell the people to do what they say and not what they do. The messenger may effect the way a message is received, but it doesn't alter the message. Paul could rejoice that the gospel was being preached whether out of good or ill-will. These teachers who are robbing God's heritage must be able to stand on their teaching or fall. Because someone with a wrong motive attacks them doesn't make their teachings correct. I hope I have made it clear that my speaking against this is out of concern for a brother who is involved in such things, not to prove myself right, but to keep him out of danger.

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Ok, let me get specific again.

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" Jeremiah 6:16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ANCIENT paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, "We will not walk in it." (NIV)

Has God changed His mind?"

There are some problems here. First, was this prophecy meant for the universal church body or for those who were present? Second, has anyone asked Carol how she understands Jeremiah 6:16? If yes, what is her understanding? If no, then wouldn't it be just to withold further judgement until we hear her defense? Three, does this verse necessarily apply to us today? Yes, one may take it that way, but is it clear? Could it have been a word for those people at that time? Who has the authority to make an absolute claim here?



Does this verse have an application today? Absolutely. Here is the passage from verse 13 to 17 spelling out the sickness that was upon Jerusalem. It is important to note that Jeremiah prophecied during one of Judah's most prosperous times in history, during the reign of one of it's Godliest kings, and shortly before the exile to Babylon: 13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people SLIGHTLY(not a real healing, but a deception, the disease still remained), saying, Peace, peace; when there is not peace. 15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush; therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them(this is to be understood as judgement) they shall all be cast down saith the LORD. 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
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By way of advice concerning their duty, v16. God said to them, Stand in the ways and see. That is, (1)He would have them to consider, not to proceed rashly, but to do as travellers in the road, who are in care to find the right way which will bring them to their journey's end, and therefore pause and enquire for it. If they have any reason to think that they have missed their way, they are not easy till they have obtained satisfaction. O that men would be thus wise for their souls, and would ponder the path of their feet, as those that believe lawful and unlawful are of no less consequence to us than the right way and the wrong are to a traveller! (2)He would have them to consult antiquity, the observations and experiences of those that went before them: "Ask for the old paths, enquire of the former age(Job 8:8), ask thy father, thy elders(Deut. 32:7), and thou wilt find that the way of godliness and righteousness has always been the way which God has owned and blessed and in which men have prospered. Ask for the old paths, the paths prescribed by the law of God, the written word, that true standard of antiquity. Ask for the paths that the patriarchs travelled in before you, Abrahm, and Isaac, and Jacob; and , as you hope to inherit the promises made to them, tread in their steps. Asd for the old paths, Where is the good Way?" We must not be guided merely by antiquity, as if the plea of prescription and long usage were alone sufficient to justify our path. No; there is an old way which wicked men have trodden, Job 22:15. But, when we ask for the old paths, it is only in order to find out the good way, the highway of the upright. Note, The way of religion and godliness is a good old way, the way that all the saints in all ages have walked in.
~Matthew Henry's Commentary~



The problem today is the same. There are a plethora of new "prophets" today who have a myriad of new ways to serve God, just as in Jeremiah's day. Yet the way, that good old way, has never, and never will, change.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

*Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/24 15:41Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Impartation Part 1

Impartation as taught today is nothing more than neo-gnosticism. One must find a man with the ability to "impart" some mystical gift to him. These men become the elete among the "normal" Christians, having access to spiritual things that only they have and teach. Much teaching like this comes out in movements like "Manifest Sons Of God", and "Joels Army" which are two of the many movements in the modern Latter Rain movement.

One of the favorite scriptures quoted by those who teach impartation is Romans 1:11 "For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift--
But, the most important rule to interpreting scripture is "Context Is King." What does it mean in the light of the surrounding passage? Verse 11 is one verse that cannot stand alone. Without verse 12 it can take on a different meaning, and that is just what the teachers of this doctrine have done. Verse 12: "that is(expounding on what he meant in the previous verse), that I mayh be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith bot of you and me."

He is not coming to "impart" some mystical gift, but to share his faith, encouraging and being encouraged, by his fellow believers. He is not coming as some spiritual giant who has a secret knowledge to impart but as a fellow laborer longing to buid and be built up in the faith.

Here is what pastor Scot Osenbaugh of Auburn Nebraska writes about this passage in his commentary on the book of Romans:

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Whithin some aspects of full gospel teaching, in what is often referred to as "third wave", there is an emerging "doctrine" or practice called "impartation". Essentially, someone who is regarded as a prophet or a powerful teacher of the Word comes to a church or gathering of belivers, and lays hands on several or all of them. In that laying on of that individual's hands, some form of power of the Holy Spirit is "imparted" or then placed into the one being prayed for. Romans 1:11 is one of the passages cited by those who believe in "impartational ministry" as justification for what they do. The question is whether such a concept of "impartation" was ever on the apostle's mind.

The Greek word translated "impart" in from metadidomai, to "share a thing with another"(Thayer lexicon,p404) Other uses of the same word in the New Testament are as follows:

John answered, "The man with two tunics should "share" with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same"(Luke 3:11). Here the idea is simply that of sharing something tangible with another person.

If it is encouraging, let him encouage; if it is "contributing to the needs of others", let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showning mercy, let him do it cheerfully(Romans 12:8) This is a call for those whose financial means are used by the Spirit to bless others to be generous in their sharing.

He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have someting to "share" with those in need.(Ephesians 4:28) The simple meaning here has to do with being able to give to others in need obtaining supply to share through gainful emplyment.

We loved you so much that we were delighted to "share" with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us.(1Thess. 2:8) This is a simple statement of Paul and his companions communicating the message of the Gospel with the belivers in Thesselonica.

There is nothing in those four uses of metadidomai that would lend to sustaining some "impartational ministry" where someone gives a spiritual gift to another. Spiritual empowerments, according to 1 Corintians 12:7 and 12:11, are all the work of the Holy Spirit. Whether someone lays hands on another or not is never an issue. The issue is the soverign working of the Spirit of God.

But, those who advance impartational ministry often cite another passage from Paul. "For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands(2 Timothy 1:6). In the early church, laying on of hands apparently had a two-fold purpose. One was to commission someone to a point of service within the church. The other was for the reception of the Holy Spirit (Stanley Horton goes on to explain that laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Spirit can be understood as helping those with a weaker faith by encouraging them. Laying on of hands was a sign to one who was weak in the faith that he had the full support of those around him, praying for him.). The question is whether the "gift of God" mentioned here refers to a specific spiritual empowerment or to the presence of the Holy Spirit. Given the context of the passage, the focus is on the Spirit, not on any particular enablement per se.

"In 2 Timothy 1:6...the charisma seems more likely to refer to the Spirit himself, although that in turn is probably a metonymy(a figure of speech where one element is used to describe the thing it symbolizes such as the "White House" used to refer to the Presidency) for Timothy's Spirit-given ministry that came to him "through prophetic utterances". (Schattler, Romans p. 15)

Since "impartation ministry" can not be truly established on New Testament textual grounds then the intent of Paul's desiring to impart something to the Roman Church must be in line with the general meaning of metadidomai, "to share". It is impartant not to isolate "impart" out of the paragraph context in which it appears. Paul wants to share something spiritual with the believers in Rome, but he does not want it to be a one-way street. He wants to share something with them to encourage them, to lift them up, and he wishes to receive something from them that his own faith might be similarly encouraged...As Stuhlmacher has observed, the intent of these verses must be interpreted in light of Paul not having a history with this church. By his coming to them, they can share the faith in Christ that is common to both, and there can be an exchange of ministry benefiting apostle and church. The "harvest" in verse 13 of which Paul speaks refers to carrying out his apostolic mission, not in evangelism, but in encouragement.



In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/24 16:42Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Impartation Part 2: The Laying On Of Hands

Several passages in scripture deal with the laying on of hands. Impartation ministries have taken ahold of these passages to "prove" that impartation is a valid minisry. However, a careful look at the scriptures reveals something different.

The book of Acts has, as it's full name, The Acts Of The Apostles. A better title would be, The Acts Of The Holy Spirit. Jesus said when the Spirit came He would lead the disciples into all truth. The Spirit and His agenda are plain to see in the book of Acts. He leads the apostles, prevents them from going places, even uses others instead of the apostles, Phillip the evangelist, Stephen the martyr, Ananias was sent to pray for Paul. All of this was done under the direction of the Spirit, not men with a secret which had to be imparted to be obtained. Stanley Horton writes in the beginning of Chapter 7 of His Book, "What The Bible Says About The Holy Spirit":

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...Jesus did begin by giving special commands through the Spirit to His chosen apostles. This does not mean, however, that the Spirit could not work through the others or that the direction of the Church was to be given over to the apostels. The Spirit was in charge. He could and did use whomever He willed.



In Acts chapter 8 Phillip went to Samaria and preached the gospel yet none received the promise of the Father until the apostles laid hands on them. Was it because the apostles were the only ones with this authority? or did the Samaritans only have a weakened faith? Stanley Horton writes in his book "What The Bible Says About The Holy Spirit":
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...The Samaritans believed what Phillip preached concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus. These things are often associated with the promise of the Holy Spirit. Phillip must have included the exaltation of Jesus to the throne and the promise of the Father

The problem seems to be on the side of the Samaritans. Now, they realized they had been wrong, not only about the deceptions of Simon the sorcerer, but also about their Samaritan doctrines. Perhaps, humbled, they found it difficult to express the next step of faith. When Jesus found faith expressed simply on the basis of His Word, He called it great faith, and things happened (Matt.8:10). When faith rose above hindrances and testing, Jesus called it great faith, and things happened (Matt.15:28). But when faith was weak, He did not destroy what there was; He helped it, sometimes by laying on His hands. p154



In acts Ch. 19 the apostle Paul came accross some believers who had only received John's baptism. Stanley Horton again writes: "...Then, 'the hands of Paul having been laid on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they began to speak in toungues and prophesy.' It is better here also to take the laying on of hands as a means of encouraging their faith..." p162

Horton writes about the calling of Paul and Barnabas in Acts ch. 13:
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On one of these occasions, the Holy Spirit spoke (probably through a prophetic utterance). His command was to separate for Him Barnabas and Saul for the work to which He had (already) called them. After fasting and prayer then, the others sent them away (let them go). Verse 4 emphasizes they were sent out by the direct agency of the Holy Spirit. The reason for the prophetic utterances to the group was that Paul and Barnabas had accepted responibilities with respect to the church in Antioch. It was not only necessary for the Spirit to deal with them about going; the church had to be willing to let them go. By laying hands on them they encouraged the faith of the apostles and indicated they would continue to stand with them in prayer. But they did not tell them where to go. The Spirit Himself directed them to go to Seleucia and then to Cyprus. p162,163



About the passages of 1Timothy 4:12-16 and 2 Timothy 1:6-8 Horton writes:
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Some have tried to use these passages to promote the idea that by prophesying over someone spiritual gifts may be given or transmitted to that person. Other have taken the laying of of hands to be a means of bestowing spiritual gifts. We must not forget, however, that the Spirit gives gifts as He wills. But even this is not the point here. These passages are better understood in light of Acts 13:2,3 and Acts 16:2. In Acts 16:2 Timothy is brought to Paul and joins his company with the approval of the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Acts does not give further details here. But from what Pauls says to Timothy it is evident that something similar to what happened at Antioch in Acts 13:2,3 took place. Why did the brethren want Timothy to join Paul's missionary party? It can only be that there was prophecy which directed the churches to set apart Timothy for the work to which the Lord had called him. Then Paul and the elders prayed and laid hands on him expressing their faith and their acceptance of Timothy's call. "By prophecy," and "with the laying on of hands of the elders" or the putting on of Paul's hands (which undoubtedly occurred at the same time as that of the elders) only mean accompanied by. Neither prophecy nor the laying on of hands is the cause of the gift. Rather, they endorsed the gift God had already given. P248



The power of God rests within God Himself. You can find the presence of God in a crowded city with a thousand churches or on au uninhabited Island with only the scriptures; or even in one case, on a slave ship repenting of your sins in a storm as the writer of "Amazing Grace" did. You do not need a man to lay hands on you, you just need to believe the Word of God for what it is.

I have listed some good sermons that can be downloaded that deal with this topic on the first post of this thread. If you want to know what Carter Conlon thinks of these ministries, those sermons pretty much spell out what he believes according to scripture. Two sermons are on their way to Greg that would be good resources on this topic. One by David Wilkerson called "The Famine Has Begun" and the other by Carter Conlon called "Dangerous Shepherds." I'll put a link on this thread to those sermons when they arrive and are up on the site.

An excellent article can be read that deals in part about this subject by following this link:

[url=http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r06.html]The Way Of Cain[/url]

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/9/24 22:47Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"Several passages in scripture deal with the laying on of hands. Impartation ministries have taken ahold of these passages to "prove" that impartation is a valid minisry."

I don't know if any claim that it is even a ministry by itself, but just an important part of ministry in general. After all, it is one of the 6 basic, elementary, and/or foundational doctrines of the apostolic church (Hebrews 6:1-2). I find it very interesting (and disturbing) that I grew up in church and never heard one teaching on this elementary (foundational?) subject.

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"All of this was done under the direction of the Spirit, not men with a secret which had to be imparted to be obtained."

Perhaps either you or I have a misunderstanding about impartation. I don't recall hearing anything about "secrets which had to be imparted to be obtained." I don't think that is what it's about, although I won't say that that won't happen sometimes. I think there's a lot of mystery involved as to what God will do in this area.

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"It is better here also to take the laying on of hands as a means of encouraging their faith"

I think this idea of the laying of hands simply being a means of encouraging peoples faith is ok. I mean, it seems possible, but certainly not conclusive as the only possiblity. I think the burden of proof here would lie with those who would take this position as the only possible and exlusive meaning.

Horton says:
"Some have tried to use these passages to promote the idea that by prophesying over someone spiritual gifts may be given or transmitted to that person. Other have taken the laying of of hands to be a means of bestowing spiritual gifts. We must not forget, however, that the Spirit gives gifts as He wills."

I would agree with this statement. What if the Holy Spirit often wills to give gifts by prophecy and the laying on of hands? Or to transfer other things to His people through His people? What if that is how He wants to do it?




 2003/9/30 15:06Profile





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