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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Church and Self-Defense

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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
It is not only the Anabaptists who have these verses in their Bibles."
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The Anabaptists I know use a variety of Bible translations - KJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, NKJV, etc. :-) Anabaptists do not have an 'Anabaptist' Bible. But then I suppose you knew this...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2013/3/28 18:28Profile









 Re:

Collin there is a difference between driving out those who were committing sin in his Father's house such as the money changers. And defending his Father's house from Roman occupation. Jesus never did that.

Also we do not see Jesus preaching the Sermon on the Mount with a Sig 23,in his side pocket.

Bearmaster.

 2013/3/28 18:48
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Collin there is a difference between driving out those who were committing sin in his Father's house such as the money changers. And defending his Father's house from Roman occupation. Jesus never did that.

In first century Palestine there was no separation between church and state. The priests at the temple in Jerusalem not only officiated over the religious life of the Jews and they were also rulers and judges.

The money changers were as much a part of the "system" as the were the Priests.

Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, ‘What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.’ John 11:45-48


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/3/28 19:33Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: pilgrim777

pilgrim777, Hello! welcome back!
it has been a long time.

 2013/3/28 19:50Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi TMK

TMK wrote ///PP we have been through this before-- in Lk 3:14 the correct translation is that John the baptist was telling these soldiers not to extort money by threats or false accusation. He was not telling the soldiers they were not allowed to defend their country.
This is another instance of where the KJV gets it wrong. The original article addresses Jesus's statement to Peter in the garden, and I agree with the article.///

TMK, it never was and it can not be proven that "Diaseio" means "to extort money by threats or false accusation."
That is again an opinion a speculation and not a fact.

It is obvious why protestant and catholic translators would decide to translate "Diaseio" as "Do not take money from anyone by force" what is unusual however is why the KJV translators whom where mostly puritan and would have not been Pacifict, felt lead to translate "Diaseio" as do violence to know man.

TMK, I will give you credit your perspective is consistent. and their for it would be pointless for me to disscuss this issue with you.

My point is for those whom believe that Jesus taught a radical message, one of being nonresistant, even when called to defend ones own country.
For those whom believe this, We must acknowledge that the KJV translation of "Diaseio" as violence to know man, is superior to that of all other translations that render "Diaseio" as "Do not take money from anyone by force" otherwise we are without any biblical fondation for such a belief.

 2013/3/28 20:13Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

Thank you. I hope you have been well. The Lord is good!

Regarding the moneychangers and driving them out of the Temple, this gives us a spiritual picture of how zealous the Lord is to drive idols out of our lives and procure full deliverance for us. It has nothing to do with using force against sinners in the church or unbelievers outside of the church.

Again, look at the conduct of Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church, before the Church was corrupted.

Paul knew it was going to happen. He fought the battles from within and without, his whole Christian life.

Act_20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Pilgrim

 2013/3/28 21:17Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Collin there is a difference between driving out those who were committing sin in his Father's house such as the money changers. And defending his Father's house from Roman occupation. Jesus never did that.

Also we do not see Jesus preaching the Sermon on the Mount with a Sig 23,in his side pocket.

Bearmaster.



LOL. That's funny, Bear. Also, a keen distinction between why Jesus was driving out the money changers.

I think it is also interesting that Romans 13 is used quite a bit to impress upon Christians that civil authorities were put in place by God (which they are) and that somehow the Church can execute the same calling that God has given to the civil, worldly authorities. The Church has a different calling. And if you read a bit further in Romans 13, the Holy Spirit carefully delineates our calling.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbor.

Even the armor we put on is not Kevlar.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.





 2013/3/28 21:25Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Regarding the moneychangers and driving them out of the Temple, this gives us a spiritual picture of how zealous the Lord is to drive idols out of our lives and procure full deliverance for us. It has nothing to do with using force against sinners in the church or unbelievers outside of the church.

However uncomfortable it may be to admit Jesus used force and violence to drive the money changers out so that the “spiritual picture” could be painted..


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/3/29 7:29Profile









 Re: Collin

Brother Jesus did use force to drive the money changers out of the temple. For he said the temple, his Father's house would be a house off prayer for all nations. Later foreshadowing the spiritual body of the church.

But why did Jesus not use force to defend himself when he was going to the cross for our sins. One mighty angel from God would have dispellled that murderous mob that came for him. For sure this is as question to be pondered.

Bear.

 2013/3/29 8:41
turn
Member



Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

In the Sermon on the Mount of the Lord Jesus Christ says this:

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)

In Romans 12, the Apostle Paul said this:

v.14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

v.17 Repay no one evil for evil...

v.19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but make space for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

v.20 ...if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink...

v.21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


If you believe the Word of God, then that is good because it will require faith to live according to these words.

 2013/3/29 8:54Profile





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