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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Dallas Megachurch of Robert Jeffress to Open $130 Million Campus in March

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MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Reply to Bearmaster

by bearmaster on 2013/2/19 2:47:41

MaryJane I have read your post and do not see that it was written from a wrong heart. But you had the courage and conviction to ask the questions that should be raised.


I know to pose these questions people will say "You judge, you judge". For sure this church is accountable before God. But when such things are done in the name of Christ then the questions have to be asked. Particularly when the head of the church had no place to lay his bead.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

_____________

Greetings Bear
Thank you for your response. You have brought up very valid thoughts on this topic. As I read over what you and others have shared I would really like to take more time and pray over this. I appreciate your heart as always and the things you shared are some of the same questions I have also but I really want to be sure I am hearing from the LORD before saying anymore.

On a personal level, as I have been considering this I was thinking about my own heart and how I use the provisions GOD has given me...there is always much room for growth in this area of my life I know. I was thinking about the house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear? I wonder if another from a much poor nation might look at my home and ask me if I have feed the hungry, clothed the naked, or cared for the widows? I want to be sure that I am not walking with a hypocritical heart in the things that I say or do. As a CHRISTIAN living in this country I am blessed with physical comfort that others do not have and I am grateful for that so much but do I use these blessings as HE would guide and lead me to?? Surely it is worth examining my own heart in this...

I guess what I am trying to say is that I came to this topic looking at the amount of monies spent to build a building(still praying on that) but as I seek HIM I also must look at my own heart and life and examine what I do in living unto HIM daily...

Thank you all for sharing what you are seeing.

God bless
mj

 2013/2/19 10:12Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re: Reply to Bearmaster

How much is "one" lost soul worth? If one life is turned from their sins and and repents and accepts Jesus Christ into their life because of this Church,
was it worth 130 mil? Or have we now put a value on salvation? It never seizes to amaze me, how some Christians will be so vocal about the Churches business, yet have such an issue minding their own. I guess all the naysayers were spoken to by God to speak negative words about his house. Comparing Jesus speaking to large crowds in public to a Shepard speaking to a large flock within walls, makes no sense. I guess if there would have been A 50,000 seat indoor arena back in the days Jesus ministered, he would have just passed up the opportunity to minister there because it was to big? It is sickening that even one saved soul would have anything negative to say about something that has not even been built yet, what, we serve a big God that only thinks small? This all amounts to opinions, please show me one scripture that says, souls are only saved in small Churches. Billy Graham has brought more lost souls to Christ than anyone, within large stadiums, surrounded by walls. The Church needs to wake up, and focus on bringing in the lost sheep, and quit worrying about we're their brought in to.


_________________
Bill

 2013/2/19 15:45Profile
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

very well said, mr bill. these people may not want to be allowed into heaven becuz it will be bigger than big there! talk about a mega-church!

 2013/2/19 16:45Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

The irony of this whole story, and it really does paint a vivid picture of the where the church is at, is that its all just about money.

It is quite revealing that in the gospels the only disciple who had issues with money was Judas. It is also interesting that he was the one who was in charge of the money.

Though Jesus talked much about money it is never mentioned that he took Judas to task for helping himself to the money bag. I believe that to God it is afterall 'just money'.

Perhaps, and maybe this is the lesson here for us, its a question of what was continually in his 'line of sight'. What is continually in our 'line of sight?'

I am reminded of the old Sunday school song: Be careful little eyes what you see.

I have a sense that the overall obsession with finances on both sides of the fence reveals the state of our hearts and what we truely place value in.

The questions that are raised by Bear are, generally speaking, valid. But why play devils advocate in a situation that knowone here certainly has any first hand experience with? Why create doubt about the integrity of this church and this man?

Instead of it being seen as a marvelous demonstration of Gods faithfulness and provision its twisted into story of how this church is wasting resources. Truely, in this present ecnomic climate, this is a sign and a wonder. What is wrong with us, my word!

Could these guys be hucksters and indebted up to their eyeballs, quiet possibly. There could be many things out of whack here with this church, but don't let us the church be the first one to chuck a stone when we don't even know if there is anything wrong in the first place.

One poster posted that he felt God say, 'Think small'. With all respect to that poster where in the bible do you ever get the impression that God thinks small and expects us to do the same. If anything he is asking us to lift up our eyes and see him who is eternal and live in the reality of that. Quite possibly God may have being telling him in reference to the Dodge ram he may be driving around in, but in regards to church no way man!!

I think also that this current thread represents a small sample of the general philosophy and leaning of the site admin and vocal posters here.

There is a general negativity and pessism in regards to big churches. Why? Small house churches are championed as the cure to the scourge of the mega-church culture. What?!Why? The cure to a lifeless limp church, big or small, is Jesus Christ and not a model of fellowship.

Its not how big or small a church is, the important question is, is Jesus there and do the people live in the light of that fact?


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2013/2/19 21:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Though Jesus talked much about money it is never mentioned that he took Judas to task for helping himself to the money bag. I believe that to God it is afterall 'just money'.

Perhaps, and maybe this is the lesson here for us, its a question of what was continually in his 'line of sight'. What is continually in our 'line of sight?'



You say that Jesus did not take Judas to task over money. My friend Jesus spoke the most terrifying and fearful words He ever spoke to a man to Judas. "Have I not chosen all of you, yet one of you is a devil". This was just before Judas went out to receive his payment and to betray Christ. Judas was never called a liar in scripture or a pervert or anything other than a thief. He was a thief. He betrayed Christ for money. What need to expose him before the hour?

The principle concern about mega churches has to do with the corrupting influence of money. As was said in this post there are few such churches which manage to sustain a good testimony.

Jesus said to His disciples "you are a little flock". Jesus also gave the parable of the mustard seed which speaks about that which is given small, exceeding its growth and becoming the resting place for all the birds of the air. The purpose of cultivating and planting mustard is to harvest it for its effect. The same is true for the church. If the seed of the mustard over extends its growth in any one place it becomes likely to become of another purpose and effect than the one intended.

No one in this post has condemned a man or questioned his motives. What has been spoke of is a $130 Million building project.

The Sunday School saying for children which you have quoted for our benefit brother is best suited for little children whose eyes are those spoken of in the rhythm. Jesus said however, "be ye as cunning as serpents".



 2013/2/19 22:01
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

My guess is there is probably more corruption that goes on in the smaller churches than big ones, you just don't hear about them as much, why? because the small churches don't bring the bucks to the media as the big church announcements do. My guess is , if the same identical thing happened in a small hometown church as a mega church, you would never hear about the small one, unless maybe you lived in the same town.


_________________
Bill

 2013/2/19 22:24Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:
You say that Jesus did not take Judas to task over money.



You missing the thrust of what I was saying, the primary point being that, to God, money means very little. Evidenced in the fact that he even put Judas in charge of the money bag knowing he was a thief.

Quote:
Jesus said to His disciples "you are a little flock". Jesus also gave the parable of the mustard seed which speaks about that which is given small, exceeding its growth and becoming the resting place for all the birds of the air. The purpose of cultivating and planting mustard is to harvest it for its effect. The same is true for the church. If the seed of the mustard over extends its growth in any one place it becomes likely to become of another purpose and effect than the one intended.



Can you explain what you mean I am at a loss as to what you are talking about.

Quote:
The Sunday School saying for children which you have quoted for our benefit brother is best suited for little children whose eyes are those spoken of in the rhythm

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2013/2/19 22:49Profile









 Re:

Point taken about becoming little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. The only rational thing to say would be that we cant presently see the kingdom of heaven. So the only place to look is out into the world we live in.

You shared that one brother had made reference to "thinking small" and you asked "where does the scripture tell us to think small?" Bearmaster shared earlier about where two or three gather together etc. I am simply saying that Jesus didn't tell his disciples who were to evangelise the world to think like a herd of thousands, but called them a "little flock".

The parable of the mustard seed has been explained by others, (I simply am repeating it in agreement) as a picture of the church. To be more precise as a picture of the kingdom of heaven in those who believe. Rather than trying to explain the physiology of the mustard seed I enclose this link for your later reading.


http://stephennewell.com/2006/10/02/mustard-seed-faith-matt-1714-21/

http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-mustard-seed.html

The thing to note is that mustard is for consumption and is generally accepted as an antibacterial agent. It cleanses as well as spices food. It is one of the tinniest seeds yet it can if left uncultivated grow to an enormous tree. As the seeds which are used to make the mustard are on the outer edges of the tree they become somewhat impractical to harvest if the plant is allowed to grow over large. Onece over grown then as with all trees the mustard becomes a resting place for the birds of the air. If the mustard seed is the kingdom of heaven within us and represents the church, and the church becomes larger than it was intended to become in order to be fruitful and purposeful then it ends up serving other purposes. The principle one being that demonic spirits find a place to nest in the branches of the church and thereby the gospel, ministry and direction of the church changes by their evil influence. One of the invisible characteristics of the mustard tree as opposed to the mustard plant, is also that its roots are up to four times the depth of its height. In short the tiny mustard seed if left uncultivated become a deeply rooted tree which not only is difficult to harvest, but its deep roots in the earth [world] make it nearly impossible to root up even if it has become useless. It becomes permanently useless.

Perhaps you don't care for the picture. In any regard this is how the parable of the mustard seed has been presented by many commentators. I have to be completely honest and say that it is a perfect picture of what can happen in large churches when the ministry is compromised and doctrines "not of the Lord" come in.

No doubt you will see that as just negative or critical. Unfortunately it is easily proven throughout history.

In finally I didn't miss what you were saying about what you believe to be God' attitude to money. I reject it thats all.

 2013/2/19 23:27
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

2 days now of sitting in judgement over a church in which no1 here knows a single soul that attends there. sad. so very sad to witness.

u folks should be ashamed of urselves and the witness u r giving to those who visit this website that may not be believers.

 2013/2/20 6:12Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
SkepticGuy...2 days now of sitting in judgement over a church in which no1 here knows a single soul that attends there. sad. so very sad to witness.

u folks should be ashamed of urselves and the witness u r giving to those who visit this website that may not be believers.



I had an old fire and brimstone Baptist pastor back in the early 60's, that whenever gossip was going around at Church, he would say this. "You Ain't Never Been Beat Up Until You Have Been Beat Up By A Christian". As a little child, I really did not know how to take his statement, but as an adult today, his statement rings clearer than a bell.


_________________
Bill

 2013/2/20 9:03Profile





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