SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : The Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

Quote:
Wonder if David Barton knows this?



not likely.

america may have been a christian utopia for white folks, but i believe the blacks, american indians and the japanese might see things a little differently.

 2013/2/15 14:08Profile
hiscomm
Member



Joined: 2007/11/9
Posts: 16


 Re:

Let me remind you friend, and I know this might be upsetting, but the English was much afraid about going into the jungles to retrieve slaves because of the exotic diseases they were getting. So the dominant and enterprising Black tribes of the region saw this as an opportunity to make a nice income. So they did the actual rounding up of the weaker tribes and sold them for profit since the European did not want to risk going into the jungle. About the Founders about 75% of them were abolitionist. But since they couldn't get agreement with the all the delegates they omitted the slavery aspect out of the Declaration. Yes; many, if not most founding fathers, were abolitionists. It has been stated that as many as 75% of all the signers of the Declaration of Independence were abolitionists. The abolitiontionist movement began as early as 1773. By 1804, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey had passed laws to help release slaves and outlaw importation of new slaves. Even Thomas Jefferson, who had once owned nearly six hundred slaves himself, proposed the abolition of slavery in Virginia in 1778 and again in 1796.

(A portion of the original draft of the Declaration of Independence denouncing slavery is provided as a transcription below. It was removed from the final document in order to secure the unanimous vote needed for approval, Georgia and South Carolina refused to vote for independence as long as this paragraph was in the Declaration. See link below. And remember it took England 50 years to ban slavery in England thanx to the work of William Wilberforce.

Yes; many, if not most founding fathers, were abolitionists. It has been stated that as many as 75% of all the signers of the Declaration of Independence were abolitionists. The abolitiontionist movement began as early as 1773. By 1804, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey had passed laws to help release slaves and outlaw importation of new slaves. Even Thomas Jefferson, who had once owned nearly six hundred slaves himself, proposed the abolition of slavery in Virginia in 1778 and again in 1796.

(A portion of the original draft of the Declaration of Independence denouncing slavery is provided as a transcription below. It was removed from the final document in order to secure the unanimous vote needed for approval, Georgia and South Carolina refused to vote for independence as long as this paragraph was in the Declaration.



Transcription
"...he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. [determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold,] he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them, thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another...")

Source: http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/slavery.HTML

Also let me give you another historical fact that might disturb you. The origination of our Founder Bashing was an actual Stated goal of the Cold War Communists for take over of America in 1963. On Jan 10th 1963 These goals were actually read into the conressional record.

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
 
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
 
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

So just remember as you bash the founders and paint them by your 'revised" history not based on their writings, your going along with the actual plans and tactics of Communists who had 45 goals for the overthrow of America. Which most of those goals have been realized The Communists who literally murdered over 149 million of their fellow citizens in the 20th century alone. By listening to your anger against America maybe if you experience living under a communist regime and experiencing their form of government you might welcome living in a country that had such wicked and twisted founders that birthed such an evil racist government.

 2013/2/15 18:17Profile









 Re:

Hiscomm I see nothing in your posts that reflect a spiritual outlook on things. You seen to think our identity as believers is tied to America as a nation.

Bearmaster

 2013/2/15 19:03









 Re:

I see in this thread a defense of America. Who will defend Jesus Christ? We spreak of the virtues of America. I ask who will speak of the beauty of his kingdom? We honor the founding fathers of America. Who will honor those who have advanced his kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel? We honor those who have fallen in battle to defend our freedoms. I ask who will honor those who have been martyred for the cause of Christ?

Do we worshhip America over Jesus Christ?

Bearmaster.

 2013/2/15 19:39









 Re:

Quote:
So just remember as you bash the founders and paint them by your 'revised" history not based on their writings, your going along with the actual plans and tactics of Communists who had 45 goals for the overthrow of America. Which most of those goals have been realized The Communists who literally murdered over 149 million of their fellow citizens in the 20th century alone. By listening to your anger against America maybe if you experience living under a communist regime and experiencing their form of government you might welcome living in a country that had such wicked and twisted founders that birthed such an evil racist government.



In the end then it is politics and nothing more than politics.What a rouse.

 2013/2/15 19:52
hiscomm
Member



Joined: 2007/11/9
Posts: 16


 Re:

Well Bearmaster I think I have been quite utterly clear on my spiritual outlook on these things. I'm surprised that you could not see this. It was quite simple. I as a person who lives on the earth and is responsible to God for my sphere of influence on the Earth. My relationship to my God, My family, My work and my fellowman. I live in a country that has a form of government that in order to work properly the citizens are charged with participating and watching over it as a duty to God because when I don't it will cause my family and my neighbor harm.

“You seen to think our identity as believers is tied to America as a nation.” No, what I said and I said it in no uncertain terms is that our demise into an utterly wicked nation is from the neglect of the church in America to be watchman on the wall and pray for the country you live in and to stand up for truth and righteousness and not let the devil to destroy it. You must think those activities are carnal don't you. The form of government you live under if you live in America demands you participate in it as your sacred duty to maintain your freedoms that you live under. I'm afraid friend you are to occupy hear or do business hear until you die. I'm afraid friend your eternity is based on how you live hear. Our identity is not tied up in America or any country. But you have responsibility to your family and community and that's part of your witness to the world. What don't you understand about that. What do you got to say about Roe Vs Wade? It's over 50 million now and 40 years. Was that not a spiritual battle that was lost? Was the church praying and standing up for truth and righteousness in 1973 in every way possible? No it was silent, the church was too busy up in the heaven lies discussing water baptism techniques. Let me get real spiritual on you. The church in America has blood on it's hands and it's guilty for the rampant sin in America. It's guilty for the conduct of America whatever spiritual state it was at it's founding, it spiritual state is utterly dead now. And if you don't see that and you see yourself as a leader or an elder in the Church of Jesus Christ we are in deep deep trouble. I'll leave you a verse that sums up my posts in general if you couldn't understand them. I'll boil it down to these verses and you'll understand what I was trying to say. I'll remind you again of the spiritual concept of :you are responsible for your sphere of influence or where you live, in other words you and I are responsible for the sin in America. The Church in America is responsible for it's downfall and you will be held accountable. While your running around confessing you belong to another Kingdom your going to be held responsible for the demise of America because you lived here and you didn't think the country you lived in was to be your concern. You will be held as an acessory to the crimes of America that you allowed to happen because of your neglect and dereliction to your duty in your sphere influence. You are guilty. Especially, if you don't confess and repent of your neglect. If we don't realize this and keep going on in our wicked ways Revival will not come in our life time and we will eat the consequences and I hope your getting ready for that possibility. I hope this is clear enough as a summary of my posts and I hope you can see a spiritual connection to this. I hope you study this out in your Bible and you will find this theme throughout.

Jeremiah 23 1“I will send disaster upon the leaders of my people—the shepherds of my sheep—for they have destroyed and scattered the very ones they were expected to care for,” says the LORD.
2This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to these shepherds: “Instead of leading my flock to safety, you have deserted them and driven them to destruction. Now I will pour out judgment on you for the evil you have done to them.

 2013/2/15 20:54Profile









 Re:

"You will be held as an acessory to the crimes of America that you allowed to happen because of your neglect and dereliction to your duty in your sphere influence. You are guilty."

I have refrained from posting on this sad piece posing as christian literature until now, but this is really too much. While you are spreading this gospel of america (that is no gospel at all) my dear brother bearmaster is doing what the bible actually commands.. holding prayer for our nation and its leaders, and more importantly the persecuted church.

A few points at the heart of your OP.

"It was the Church's job to storm Washington and demand the impeachment of Justice Harry Blackman and his other minions in 1973 for the diabolical evil of abortion causing American to be guilty of murder defiling the land. It was the Church's job to run out Congress and impeach the Supreme court for daring in 1980 to ban the 10 commandments the very foundation of our laws from the view of our children in the schools."

This is unbiblical. The churches job is to pray for and pay taxes to Caesar, feed the poor, preach the Gospel (the Gospel of the kingdom and that kingdom aint america), and keep our hearts unpolluted from the world (including the part of the perverse world of the christian right). You will never find the Lord or apostles acting or teaching such nonsense as what you posted. In fact, part of the reason Christ was rejected is because the unconverted jews thought like you do and expected him to liberate them from the tyranny of Roman government. Instead of storming Caesars palace Christ stormed the money changers in the temple (how much money has the christian right made from mixing holy things of God with patriotic idolatry and selling it to undiscerning church people). Instead of putting the ten commandments back in schools I pray that Christ would remove the patriotic idolatry and the hybrid kingdom model that started with apostate Constantine from the hearts of His people in this country. I have no ill will against this country and certainly dont condemn believers using political means to protect life (though I think it is often misguided)... yet you un-righteously condemn those who wont take part in your fantasy about "christian" america. That is sad friend. I used to be taken captive by the gospel of america too, I have since found the reality of the kingdom and pray you would too. It is all laid out in the NT. An unlearned fisherman can read it, yet sadly we aren't unlearned today - we have been taught lies since our youth by political and religious con-men.

-Jim

 2013/2/15 23:23
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

excellent points jim.

to the original poster, I do believe bearmaster is putting words in ur mouth, but he also makes a good point.

i am not against america. a LOVE america and i am very grateful to live here. it truly is the greatest country in the world (imho) in regards 2 freedom, justice, etc. nowhere in the world is there a country where people are clamoring to get in like they do here. nowhere.

nostalgia is nice. we all like to think back to our high school days and we remember it fondly. its all airbrushed in our memories, but rarely do we recall how much we hated it when we went thru it.

there were many founding fathers who were believers, and certainly the america culture had more reverence for the things of god. we all know this to be true. BUT what I take issue is when u said America was a "vibrant christian nation" and full of righteousness. while there was righteousness, it was far from being a christian utopia, and that's a fact. that IS NOT founders bashing, its simply the truth of the matter.

the fact that africans went into the jungles and captured their own and sold them into slavery does not clear Americas guilt at the time. if there were no market for human trafficking then it would not have been happening.

then we proceeded to wipe out the american indians with no apology, breaking every oath the government made. when colonists stood up for their rights and fought for their freedom we herald them as heroes and founding fathers. when the Indians did the same we called them savages and cut their throats and raped their women.

so please, while it is true that america gave lip service to god (and acknowledging that many of its citizens were very sincere in their faith!), there was also a dark and ugly side to America.

this cannot be denied, and acknowledging that duz not make one a founder basher or a communist, my friend. it simply makes me a person interested in TRUTH.

since u have not denied being a fan of the so-called "historian" david barton (who is even being criticized by christian and conservative historians for being a flake) I must warn u that this mixing of christianity with the mormon cult (via david barton and GLENN BECK) is actually more dangerous 2 america than communism ever was. if communism had or ever did take over America it would probably result in the greatest spiritual revival in American history. mixing christianity and mormonism will deceive people into hell, a much worse fate!

tell david barton i said hello.

 2013/2/16 5:42Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I am closing this tread to prevent another political debate. Brethren, I believe the enemy is delighted when believers argue about these things. One of his greatest decoys is to get believers to argue with earthly politics rather than wrestle against spiritual principalities. It is not the flag which is to be our focus, but the prince of the power of the air blowing through it.



_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/2/16 7:11Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy