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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : The Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America

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Joined: 2007/11/9
Posts: 16


Where did we get out of the article choose Washington or Christ? Washington was the chosen vessel to help bring about the birth of this nation. Washington was a follower of Christ. God is nationalistic. He has and does reward nations that follow him and honor him. He also crushes nations that rebel against him. It hasn't changed! The same today as yesterday. America was a picked nation, if you study your history you would find that would be the case. This article was not to promote Patriotism. It was to lament our fall as a nation from righteousness and to remind where the responsibility lies. The Church that lives in America. I like you, are disgusted when I observe the 911 remembrances. Not about the people that were lost but our nation did not repent and turn from our wicked ways. I felt that was a warning that was not heeded. I too believe that since WW2 we really have fallen away and totally downhill since 1960. As you probably have read God did give the different peoples their own boundaries. As you read about the promise land the Israelite had to ask permission to cross those boundaries and most of the time they didn't get it. Within those boundaries where the people lived they were commanded to serve God in those boundaries. They were commanded within those boundaries too full commitment. If the leaders found a murdered person in the fields even though the local community knew nothing about it they had too show repentance to clear them of possible guilt because it was in their sphere of influence. You must have really been upset when the Israelites went to lands that God told them to take and Kill everyone, men women and children. Likewise when the Assyrians went into Israel and they were told to sweep them from the land. As God is the same as He was yesterday he operates the same way. When Christians came to the new world and took the land whether they were perfect or not the Pagans were displaced i.e., the Indians. Their Pagan cup of sin had filled up to the top and they were swept from the land as a result of their sin of paganism. And I might add we in America are in danger of that very thing: being swept from the land. So in closing , the undeniable biblical facts are God is nationalistic, God sets boundaries and borders for nations, God blesses nations and curses nations according to their loyalty to him. It's the same today as it was 4000 years ago the same program. God sends visions just like he did Peter. God sends angels to help his cause. Gods sends elaborate visions to enhance the message. And you as an individual Christian are responsible for your sphere of influence. That means for you if live in a communistic type government where you have no control or input you are to pray for your leaders. If you live in a Constitutional Republic where the Individual is charged to participate in His or Her government and cast votes and be watchman on the wall in the process and you did not and the government gets out of control and passes all kinds of ungodly laws, your responsible by your sin of neglect and apathy because you had a say in what was to be done and chose (choices) to do nothing. We will be judged as an accessory to the crimes of America and be held accountable if we don’t repent and turn from you wicked irresponsible ways. Hopefully this will explain my little take on this subject and it has brought up my own neglect in my own spheres of influence that needs repentance!

 2013/2/15 9:31Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: amrkelly

A.W. tozer

The Apostles, the Church Fathers and the Reformers were men of controversy. They fought the devil to the death and kept the torch of truth burning for all succeeding generations. Is our contribution to history to be the ignoble one of letting the torch go out? Tozer

amrkelly responded to the A.A. Tozer quote ///And thats conceited as well. Just in case you didn't think anyone would say it brother. I have.///

In a forum so filled with conceite, I am never shocked at the responses.

I did not write the A.W. Tozer quote, Tozer did. I do not agree completely with it, if much of any of it,
My point is that their are Christians whoms lives prove which Kingdom they where of yet still had and have a thankfulness to live in a free country and that are pro American.

It would appear from many on these Forums, that to be of the Kingdom would mean that we must be hypercritical and despise America and to speak evil of those freedoms that we are blessed to have.

 2013/2/15 10:49Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA


Very interesting thread with good arguments on both sides. I recently saw this video and thought I'd share it here as I think it makes a good case along the lines of the OP. It's a message delivered at the the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast:

Interested in hearing your thoughts on it?


 2013/2/15 11:14Profile

 Re: From the New Testament

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world.if it were, my service would fight to prevent my rest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven.and we eagerly await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:1
Therefore Holly brothers, wbo share in the heavenly calling, let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.

Hebrews 11:16
Instead they were looking for a better country ---a heavenly one.

We as believers in Jesus Christ must realize our destiny is in the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ. Not in the political destiny of a nation such as America. We have an eternal destiny in the kingdom of Jexus Christ Our mandate is to call people to saving faith and life in Jesus Christ.

The mandate we call the great comission as given by Jesus at the end of Mathew''s hosp was given to the followers of Jesus. Not to the United States of America.

Down through church history those followers of Jesus have always saw themselves as citizens of a heavenly kingdom with allegaiance to a heavenly King. For those followers of Jesus to declare such they were persecuted by temporal authorities and still are to this day. To say their is another king, one called Jesus will invite execution in places like N.Korea.

The thing that killed the spread of the gospel to the known Roman world was not persecution. The church thrived under persecution. What killed the spread of the gospel was when Constitine made it a state religion. Then the followers of Christ forgot their soljourn to a heavenly kingdom.

This is what I see in the OP. We are forgetting our heavenly calling to be with King Jesus. We are thinking with the fleshly mind of man and not with the spiritual mind of Christ. For all practical intents we are worshipping America and not God.

Our freedom is found in the cross of Jesus Christ. Not the Constitution of the United States. Our redemption is found in the cross of Jesus Christ. Not Old.Glory. Ultimately our heavenly home is in tge New Jerusalem. Not the United Stages of America.

This is what the New Testament teaches the flowers of Jesus.


 2013/2/15 11:53


PP if you mean do I believe the Kingdom of God is incarnated in us through the rule of Jesus in our hearts. Then yes I do. This is the teaching of the New Testament.


 2013/2/15 11:57


His Beloved Battmeship America. This sounds like Americs worship.


 2013/2/15 12:03

 Re: The Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America

amrkelly responded to the A.A. Tozer quote ///And thats conceited as well. Just in case you didn't think anyone would say it brother. I have.///

In a forum so filled with conceit, I am never shocked at the responses. proudpapa

I am sorry brother for my response. Without needing to justify anything my latter post followed the line of thought that quoting something which is already more than 70 years old and which was written for another day, amounted to trying to make a contra defence of the centrality of the idea presented in the original post, by a man who it may be thought ought not to be challenged. I accept that there is a difference between what Tozer wrote as a reflection of the rise in socialist and communist in his day, with all the attendant concerns which that held, and seeking to provoke an emotional credibility that the USA is somehow a holy nation elected by God and over which a “strong angel” has charge draped in the constitutional flag of the USA. Such imagery is frankly blasphemous and regardless of the reasons for the War of Independence the claim that it was a righteous war is completely false and goes against the very centrality of what the true gospel really means.

I know that Greg doesn’t want this type of political debate to take place because it so easily gets out of hand; beside which it is largely futile. I accept that this must be true given the uselessness of political philosophy to make reasonable the truth according to the true gospel and not according to vain philosophy. I didn’t actually think, nor do I believe that the whole of the Tozer quote was conceited, just the small part I highlighted. This is simply because had Tozer got it right by all reckoning the USA ought to be a communist state by now. It isn’t a communists state and moreover there is more national pride today in the USA than there was at the time the words were written. All this despite the fact that socialism as it is understood from the atheistic roots which have fed and watered it, has produced an antithetical reality in the USA in which individualism is absolutely paramount to well being, a thing which socialism completely rejects both philosophically and economically. How to explain this individualism as well as the “collective” good of “individuals” is a paradox. The key to it seems to lie in the very constitution itself. Therein lies the difficulty of claiming that the constitution which reflects the epitome of accomplishment, the legal basis for the governance of the USA, was a fruit of heaven. The term “Son of the Republic” is a parody of words taken from Ezekiel and attributes to the USA, by attributing them to its “first Son” that which can in reality only belong to Israel. The Church on the other hand is to be separate in every place, holy and blameless.

As I said brother forgive me for being so crass.

 2013/2/15 12:06


I realize that we do not want this thread to turn Into to a political debate. But since this forum is accessed from different parts of the world. Even from restricted nations. Let it be known that we are not promoting an American agenda here.

America is not the New Jerusalem. And some of us do believe that our eternal destiny is in a heavenly kingdom with the heavenly King, Jesus. Some of us do believe the incarnation of the kingdom of Christ begins with the rule of Jesus in our hearts. One that will be consumated even Jesus Christ returns.

The New Testament tells us Jesus is returning for a spotless bride, His body, the church. Not a spotless America.


 2013/2/15 12:59

Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


Well Brother as you know slavery had been around for about 5000 years plus. In Rome and other powers at the time and before, up to half the population would be typically slaves. You could end up that way for all kinds of reasons. Thee typical way would be invasion of your country. As you know, the societies were agricultural. As you know it wasn't till 1833 that slavery was abolished in the British empire. So slavery was not new on the block. Just like abortion to you today is nothing new. As you know many of the Founders were abolitionist and set their slaves free. Charles G Finney said he felt that the only way to get rid of slavery was war. Revivals filled the land just before the war and through the war. Not saying we were perfect but kept trudging. But see friend were not talking about the passed away church were talking about the hear and now, and that generation in which your talking about did bring about revivals in their times and did bring about great social change for people. What has our generation of the Church done except lose the gains we once had. I put up one last post on this thread for your review and ponderance and I think it completely explains my general views on the subject you know we can be on here for days battering back and forth but it is possible we can find nuggets of truth in our discussions that will help the cause of Christ. Thanks for your comments

nice song and dance, brother, but you are the one who said up until 1900 america was a vibrant christian nation. a christian 'utopia' of sorts. exactly which founding fathers set their slaves free? u make slavery sound like boy scout camp, but there is a big difference between sum1 3000 yrs ago who was on the losing end of a war and became a slave, and going to the otherside of the world and capturing and kidnapping men, women and children and putting them on a putrid slave ship full of disease, chaining them in a laying down position (rack 'em and stack 'em) for weeks while they are shipped to america and then sold.

this is what a vibrant christian nation was doing. i agree that the country was divided over it. we all know that. but still half the vibrant christian nation condoned and participated in it and USED SCRIPTURE to defend it.

i am not dragging america through the mud, but i am pointing out that the rosey "david burton" america did not exist. u have read too much revisionist history.

 2013/2/15 13:42Profile


And let us not forget the several thousand Japaneese Americans interned during WWII. They were Inccarcerated without due process. The remains of two of those camps can be found in Arkansas.

Wonder if David Barton knows this?


 2013/2/15 14:03

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