SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
If a dictionary or encyclopedia have errors, and most of them do, does it invalidate the rest of the information?



The notion that scripture has changed over time has been parroted again and again - so often in fact, that many imagine it is true simply because they consider it unlikely that so many could be misinformed. The fact is, however, that this popular notion is entirely fictional.

Consider the virtually complete text of the book of Isaiah found with the dead sea scrolls:

This near complete text, containing a few -insignificant- variations (spelling errors and the like) was identical to the texts we have today - nearly 2000 years later (see: The Dead Sea Scrolls & Modern Translations of the Old Testament", by Harold Scanlin 1993).

This is just one example (among many that could have been cited) which emperically demonstrates that the texts we have today are no different that the texts that were delivered to us long ago.

The idea that scripture has changed over time is folklore - that is, people believe it because other people say it is true - and not because it is founded on any facts. The reality in this case, is that even after 2000 years we still have impeccable and accurate facsimiles of the originals - no other ancient document on earth is as accurate or attested as our NT.

All mysticism and esoteria aside, Christians are not called to place their faith in some uncertain, patchwork document, but in scripture - the most preserved document in all history.

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/8 16:28Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: change of title

Ok, now that you've changed the title, we see the subject should be one of the "cross". So, this thread should be cross-centered- right? :)


_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/8 16:29Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Thats kinda like eating the plate and leaving your breakfast sitting on the table top.


HAHA sorry I think that is a funny analogy. Hmm... it amazes me how a thread can start out on one thing and end up being something completely different. I'm not so much talking about this thread.. its pretty much on track, but in alot of them. Are we all just scatterbrained? ;-) although ive done the same thing several times.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/3/8 16:35Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Courage for the Gospel

Gentlemen, I've been participating in this wonderful forum for about 2 weeks. Though I have found much edification, (God bless you Philo, Mike, Agent 001, and many others.) I gently want to call attention to a certain bitter stream that persists in these fresh waters. I confess it's had an adverse effect on my own spirit.

Is being offensive now equated with courage for Christ?

What is this cycnical preoccupation with the dark subject matters of fake christians, false gospels, wolves, apostasy, and yeah, even sin? It's unhealthy. Do you also obsess about cancer, HIV, second hand smoke and higher taxes?

Of course I must keep vigilant for the true gospel.(Isaiah 37:3, 62:6-7) Now let me demonstrate the true gospel in my own life. Brothers, even after 28 years of walking with the Lord, when I read the sermon on the mount, or the parables I am still given new light as if I had been completely ignorant of their meaning. If I must offend, let it be regrettably through long suffering, not zealous impatience.

Am I angry at other Christians for being weaker or less faithful then myself? Here is some salve to apply to my sore:I The moment I take notice of my own righteousness, it vanishes. It's much safer that I look for Jesus being manifested, however faintly, in my precious brothers and sisters. This way I am bound to you for the sake of Perfect Love...not constantly despising your imperfect love.(Zechariah 2:8, Colossians 3:14, Galations 4:19)

Am I able to eat the meat of the word while others are still drinking milk? (I feel silly for even talking like this.)Then let me serve them healthy milk, kept pure with living water from my own life and not soured with constant boasting from my lips.(I Corinthians 8:1,3) By the way, I still like milk...it builds strong bones!

Have I accepted that everyone else is on a vector of defeat and apostasy unless they hear my voice? Then let me consider a more hopeful vector promised by Jesus. "My sheep hear my voice..." (John 10:27)

Finally for you young silverback preachers of the Cross, try meditating on a higher ambition then that of being "Offensive."

Let's try being "Hopeful". Now that does require courage! :-)

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/3/8 16:38Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

The offence of the cross is within the context of Paul preaching the cross so as to supplant Judaism. The offense of the cross is generally going to come from folk trying to get people under some legalistic religion. If we preach the cross as strong as Paul did we would take some 'fire' but it would not be from folk we might expect. It would be friendly fire from people saying we have watered down the message. He preached the Gospel until people might respond; "Shall we continue in sin because we are not under the law?" He talked about people coming to- "spy out His liberty that he has in Christ."

We get into a mess when we think that Spirituality can be gained by making the Gospel into some grievious burden beyond what it is meant to be. Why did the folk at Galatia want to circumcise the people or rather desire to get the people under 'circumcision'? Was there a loss of power? Was there a noticable drop in miracles? Well, he asks, do those who work miracles among you do it by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?

Preaching the Cross will offend, but it will offend those who are caught up in religion. Preaching the Cross will be foolishness to those who esteem themselves wise. The Jews stumbled at it. Why? It was not about them, it was about what Christ did. They could not glory in the flesh anymore if Christ is the end of the law for those who believe. Believe!! They might say to Paul? Are you kidding me? You mean I been keeping this law all these years for nothing? Somebody hand me that stick I'll teach him to make my works of none effect! So he was beaten and stoned and all that. Why? Because Christ through the finished work of the Cross is the end of the law for all those who believe.

Spurgeon once wrote; "Salvation by grace, to be sued for in forma pauperis, to be asked for as an undeserved boon from free, unmerited grace, this it is which the carnal mind will not come to as long as it can help it: I beseech the Lord so to work that some of you may not be able to help it. And oh, I have been praying that, while this morning I am trying to set forth Christ as the end of the law, God may bless it to some hearts, that they may see what Christ did, and may perceive it to be a great deal better than anything they can do; may see what Christ finished, and may become weary of what they themselves have laboured at so long, and have not even well commenced at this day. Perhaps it may please the Lord to enchant them with the perfection of the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. As Bunyan would say, "It may, perhaps, set their mouths a watering after it," and when a sacred appetite begins it will not be long before the feast is enjoyed. It may be that when they see the raiment of wrought gold, which Jesus so freely bestows on naked souls, they will throw away their own filthy rags which now they hug so closely.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/8 16:40Profile









 Re:

"So how do you maintain confidence in the author of the dictionary who keeps getting the definitions wrong?"

Other sources of information are used to corroborate or refute. If you only use one source of information, and exclude all others, you do offence to the brains God gave us and fall onto the path of error.

Believing the creation story in a literal manner is in no way a condition for salvation. To ignore the vast amount of credible information showing an old earth and the evolution of life on it just seems crazy to me. (And quite stuborn, too; a quality I recognize in myself, as well) And believing in evolution in no way invalidates the Bible or Genesis. Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book.

Bub

 2005/3/8 16:43









 Re:

Quote:
It's much safer that I look for Jesus being manifested, however faintly, in my precious brothers and sisters.



Bravo, sounds like George Fox to me.

"[B]e patterns, be examples in all countries, places, islands, nations wherever you come; that your carriage and life may preach among all sorts of people, and to them; then you will come to walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone; whereby in them you may be a blessing, and make the witness of God in them to bless you"

 2005/3/8 16:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jake,

Quote:
Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book.



I look at it a different way. With the track record that science has- I would be more concerned by far about trusting their record that proves often to be false and then find out that the testimony of God was sure.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/8 17:01Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: looking for wrong

MC,

something in your last post rang true for me. Just the other day I was thinking how when my thoughts are focused on Christ alone and just following Him and learning to grow into His likeness- I am always more at peace and at rest. Yet, when my focus changes and I start looking at all the things that are wrong (and yes there are alot of things wrong in the church) I start losing my peace and rest.

The best thing we can do for a church gone bad (or an apostacized church) is BE THE CHURCH WE WERE MEANT TO BE OURSELVES. There's no use going around and complaining and voicing all our opinions. It won't do any good. Only a living epistle will do any good.

If we spent more time working on following Christ ourselves and doing the things He has asked us to do (feed the hungry, help the elderly and homeless, give to a brother in need, encourage someone who is hurting, speak the truth in love, share the gospel in action as well as words) we wouldn't have as much time to complain and look for every opportunity to find someone to tell our sorry story to.

Let's give the church a new demonstration of Christianity (ala Ravenhill).

If we are at peace, if we are at rest, if we are able to love without condition, if we are able to be cleansed daily from sins of unforgiveness and other things that we havn't let go of- yes, the rest of the church and the world might take notice.

I am not saying that we should ignore or pretend that there is nothing wrong. But we must stop talking so much about it and live as an example. We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, but that doesn't change anything. We need change; Change in ourselves first.

Thanks for reminding me of this.

In His love, chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/8 17:02Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book.



Agreed. That is a great danger - but only if the bible were in fact fallible, and then, only if one of the many current competing evolutionary theories was suddenly deemed valid.

In practice however, evolutionary theory continues to evolve itself. The best theory last week, is replaced by a better theory this week - well, at least a competing theory. There are well over 20 major theories competing for supremecy at the moment, and far more minor ones. The consistent pattern in evolutionary theory is that whatever happens to be in vogue today will be so modified tomorrow as to make today's 'hope' a laughable fancy.

As we learn more about our world, the number of competing theories increases, and the complexities in the competing theories continues also to increase. if we were to graph it, we would see that we are not moving towards an evolutionary solution - but in fact, we are moving away from one. Each day that science fails to prove evolution - they move statistically farther away from doing so.

Said another way, statistically speaking, if we haven't proven it by now, it will be less and less likely that we will ever prove it.

The danger then lies more in the other direction - that is, what if the bible --is-- infallible, and a person fails to treat it as such. They would pick and choose what they felt was good to believe and discard the rest. In the end, they would create their own God out of the pieces they liked from the bible. They would be idolators - and worse - they would be deceived, imagining that {what} they were worshipping {was} the real God, when in fact they {had only ever been} worshipping a reflection of their own {projected} desires.

So yes, there is danger - but of the two, the greater danger is to imagine the bible is fallible - in my opinion.

Dan
/\/
\/\

edited: Wherever you see curly braces {} it marks an addition or correction.


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/8 17:49Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy