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DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re: The Anti-Christian Roots of the University

proudpapa

Based on your post are you agreeing that university is evil? That is what the post seems to be implying.


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John

 2013/2/7 8:34Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
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 Re: DEADn

Hi DEADn

DEADn wrote ///proudpapa

Based on your post are you agreeing that university is evil? That is what the post seems to be implying.///

I think Eta Linnemann speaks very clear on the subject, I would recommend her book to anyone.
http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Criticism-Bible-Reflections-Bultmannian/dp/082543095X

If someone fills called by God to pursue a proffesion that requires a degree and they are absolutly convinced that it is of God than let them pursue it.
But otherwise I would suggest against the university. Yes I believe much that is taught in the university is clearly of satan.

 2013/2/7 10:50Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

If a person wants to become a Professional then they have no choice BUT to go to college because being a Professional requires education. Some people are college material and some people are not. I don't necessarily think being Christian should tell a person they shouldn't go to college. College and Christianity usually only confront each other in philosophy issues and in the sciences but is that evil? I think of it as when Paul confront the Greeks about their many Gods. In this case we are talking about young people. Some will grow and some will not. Depends on their roots but when a young person is sheltered than their experiences in this atmosphere can be traumatic.


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John

 2013/2/7 11:02Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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NC, USA

 Re:

PP wrote:

"But otherwise I would suggest against the university. Yes I believe much that is taught in the university is clearly of satan."

But scripture says:

"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." (I John 4:4, KJV)




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Todd

 2013/2/7 11:20Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I think that going to a liberal seminary would be much more of a spiritual challenge then going to a liberal arts school.

In my opinion, there are two reasons for going to school. The first reason is to become a subject matter expert. The second reason is to learn how to self learn.

If we go to become a subject matter expert but do not know how to self learn after we leave, we really haven't been educated. And we could be paying off school loans long after our knowledge is obsolete.

In the end, even within a university classroom, all meaningful learning is self learning.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2013/2/7 12:05Profile
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 Re:

I agree 100% Compton.

I do think it is possible to become a subject matter expert through self teaching, and even how to self learn, like Abe Lincoln.

I was reading some old classic book lately- i think it was Jude the Obscure by Thomas Hardy, and I was amazed at what the protagonist was expected to know by self learning before he could even consider going to the university.

I have always thought it would be interesting to teach myself Latin or Greek-- for no particular reason-- but the prospect is daunting. But that is what a person had to do back then.

The problem, as has already been pointed out, is that our society does not accept "self learning." I could be an absolute expert in human anatomy and physiology and could self learn all about drugs and diagnosis etc but I can't be an MD w/o formal education, nor could I practice law.

I went to law school and I remember about 5% of it; 95% was lost after the bar exam. Law school did teach you how to think like a lawyer, which of course is its main purpose.

I certainly agree with you about liberal seminaries. "Danger danger Will Robinson."


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Todd

 2013/2/7 12:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re:

Hello,

I appreciate the time that I spent at universities. However, the encouragement that we should be on our guard at all times is very timely. The Word of God says that we are to "prove (test) everything" and to hold on to the good (I Thessalonians 5:21).

When I met with Leonard Ravenhill as a youth shortly before he passed away, this was the greatest advice that he said that he could impress upon me. He told me that believers have become too "accepting" of what they have been told or taught. This is why the church is in the condition it is in. Interestingly, jimp stated that Brother Ravenhill exhorted him with same message.

Not only did I maintain my faith while attending secular universities, I grew in my faith as well. I was able to find other believers on campus and fellowship with them. I attended (and held) Bible studies, wonderful prayer meetings and simple times of worship. Our group of believers was very active too. We assisted open air preachers who visited campus. We evangelized. We encouraged those who were in need, struggling or those who felt a desire to "find" God. We placed posters around campus to spread the message that contained telephone numbers and email addresses in case someone wanted help.

As a result, we saw tremendous things happen on campus. Our campus "church" met in a "large upper room" in the Student Union building and eventually became standing room only. We didn't use "gimmicks" to spread our message. Our work was very simple. We met for prayer, simple worship/praise and Bible studies. In fact, there were several occasions in which believers met in my dorm room as we listened to messages from SermonIndex via my computer. Afterward, we would spend wonderful time in prayer. Those were great times!

Now, those who attend universities today can attend for many different reasons.

As Compton said, it is a great means for "self-learning." The best professors that I ever had -- even if I disagreed with them -- encouraged students to study and prove them either right or wrong. I remember attending Physics and Engineering classes where the professors would explain that many of the things that he teaches may one day be proven to be incorrect. So, a student at a university isn't just "instructed" in mere "facts." A student is encouraged to listen to instruction and then validate whether it is correct, incorrect or somewhere in between.

I think that this is key for believers. It is true at universities (secular or "religious"), work and even in our churches. Too many believers are too "trusting" of someone else's work or research. They haven't learned to validate claims or "evidence" for themselves. They read a book or website on a subject (that is often agreed upon by other books and websites) and then feel that it is true enough to repeat the information contained within it. This is not "proving" or "testing" but "accepting" (and even placing "faith" in) something -- enough to repeat it as "fact." It can be dangerous not only to personal growth, but also in the hearts and minds of those who share a lack of "testing" via real research. The best pastors and teachers that I have heard were those who asked us to not believe them but to "test" their words to see if they are true.

Unfortunately, many students today aren't so interested in "self-learning." Many simply want a diploma. They realize that a diploma will open many more doors for them that "self-learning" will not. Yes, they will pick up skills while in college. However, more times than not, they are interested in simply "earning" the degree (which is much easier to do than "earning" an education) and then obtaining a higher paying job with better job security. They do the least amount of "study" while in school with the motto "D as in Diploma." There used to be a joke that you would hear among students, "What do you call a doctor, engineer or teacher who graduates with a 'C' average?" The answer? "A doctor, engineer or teacher."

I do find it odd that there are some believers who not only discourage education but declare it to be "evil." Yet, those same individuals partake in the "fruit" of the education itself. They visit hospitals or doctors who were educated in medical schools. They seek attorneys who were educated in law schools. They use computers that use parts designed by engineers and scientists who became engineers and scientists at universities. They reside in homes constructed by carpenters but were designed or approved by architects (educated at universities). They drive vehicles upon roads that were designed by educated men and women. They use things like cell phones, the internet, bicycles, lights, plumbing, printers, tablets, GPS devices, books from printing presses, etc... -- that were often largely designed by individuals who were educated at colleges, universities or trade schools.

Now, a person can be skilled WITHOUT an education. A person can be an apprentice and earn much-needed skills and knowledge. A person without an education can become financially successful too. In fact, a person can be a "scientist" or "engineer" without even having stepped foot in a university -- because "self-learning" is vital to research and can be embraced without a formal education (even if a university provides many tools that are difficult to come across outside).

I can think of a handful of engineers, scientists and even medical researchers who lacked formal education.

Vivien Thomas was a medical researcher who was instrumental in the development of open heart surgery. He was a poor African American janitor with nothing more than a high school education. After seeing his janitor looking through his anatomy books, renowned surgeon Dr. Alfred Blalock asked Thomas to assist him in his pioneering research into "blue baby syndrome" at Vanderbilt and John Hopkins. Vivien Thomas self-educated himself through books and an informal but de facto "apprenticeship" under Dr. Blalock. At one point, Thomas made the vital heart bypass discovery (on an animal test subject) for which Dr. Blalock famously declared was like "something the Lord made." Due to his work, John Hopkins University made Vivien Thomas a member of the faculty and placed his portrait in a hall of notable faculty members.

There have been other notable examples. Famous architect Frank Lloyd Wright quit school after just a year at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. The Wright Brothers never graduated from college. Thomas Edison was educated through apprenticeships. Benjamin Franklin, Michael Faraday, George Green and Srinivasa Ramanujan were inventors, scientists and mathematicians without obtaining a formal education at a college. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Ballmer, Michael Dell and Mark Zuckerberg all dropped out of college but gained skills on their own prior to (or while) attendance but still found success without a degree.

I suppose that is the point. Many students today attend because they associate a greater level of opportunity and success with a degree. For the most part, this is true. It would be extremely difficult to obtain work as an engineer, scientist, architect, electrician, nurse,teacher or doctor without a formal education. So, many students attend colleges, universities or trade schools for the purpose of finding greater opportunity following an investment of a few years in school.

Christians should not be afraid of education -- even formal education. We are the light of the world and that light shines brightly in dark places. If we are firm in our walks with Christ, we don't have to fear being around all of those non-Christians at work or school. After all, while most of the apostles were perceived as "unlearned men," they could still read and write (and most even had "trades" that were learned via apprenticeships or at the feet of their fathers). Paul was highly educated. The men who wrote the Word of God could read and write. Those who translated the Word of God had to be educated in such matters.

The most important thing that a Christian must have BEFORE they attend a college or university is a firm and immovable faith in Christ. There are many voices that we will hear in life. Some of those voices can cause destruction if we allow it. On a personal level, I thank God for being admonished by Leonard Ravenhill to "test everything" while I was still a boy. This has echoed throughout my life. It has helped me to not only test what others say, but refrain from placing my faith on the words, teachings and even "facts" that are introduced to me by preachers, teachers and even professors. So, when I sat in front of professors (or pastors, teachers, etc...), I always approached them with a healthy knowledge that they are flawed men.

There are advantages of formal education. Like TMK said, you almost always need a formal education and set of degrees to become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, architect, engineer or scientist. It doesn't mean that you can't obtain the same amount of education through self-learning. However, it is difficult to obtain a good job without such a degree -- especially in a specific field of study. You don't need a degree to get a job and be successful. However, a degree can be an investment in which you gain education (formal and through "tools" and "resources" available at universities) and the opportunity that comes with it.

Most importantly, I always encourage a person to PRAY and FAST before making decisions of such far-reaching magnitude. I did this before I went to college. Personally, I have never regretted it and remain grateful to the Lord for my experiences during college and the opportunities that my degrees have provided (as always, of course, with the direction of the Lord).


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Christopher

 2013/2/7 14:05Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

Nice post, Chris.

I want to be "fair and balanced" so I must confess that going to a secular college did have a detrimental effect on my walk with the Lord, but that was not the college's fault-- it was all mine. And it wasn't what I was being taught in the classroom, but rather the "college environment."

I grew up in a good Christian home, saved at a young age, and was a very good kid(as far as getting into any major trouble was concerned), good student, athlete, etc. I guess I was a tad sheltered however.

When I went away to college- I went away from home, and guess I went a little wild... not super wild, just a little wild. On a scale of 1 to 10 of college wildness I was probably a 3- but still doing some things I should not have (i.e. smoke, drink or chew or go with girls that do).

I never lost my faith or anything; I just wasn't walking the walk. But God pursued after me, and brought me back to where I belong.

Perhaps it was not a totally bad thing; perhaps it was part of "growing up." Even Amish kids go through this period.

But I can look back and see how God hunted me down, and what a blessing that is!


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Todd

 2013/2/7 15:41Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

TMK

That isn't the fault of colleges though. I think if Christian's are too sheltered they become too vulnerable when they get shaken and end up losing their faith. It is just as if you are too clean you can catch a cold much easier. The more you go through the fire the more pure you are going to be. Remember Refiner's fire?

This goes back to my original post then. The girl who wrote those words came from a Quiverfull family. Have those families missed the boat a bit by not allowing their kids to go to college if they want to to learn? They have their ways set in which they believe men should be the bread winners and the women should look to get married, raise kids and be a homemaker. Yet what if the girls don't really want to do this?


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John

 2013/2/7 17:25Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

cccchhhhrrriiiissss

I gotta give you a big on hug on your post. Every paragraph caused me to say YES a little louder each time. To the point that I thought I heard the fat lady singing!!!

My regret with education is following the road I need to be one because I know what my strong points are but professionally I do not know where that road is. Communications, psychology and journalism fascinate me yet I am not sure how I can use them professionally since the job market is very shaky with them so at the moment I am playing with IT.


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John

 2013/2/7 17:33Profile





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