| Poster | Thread | Jimm
Member
Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE
| | Concerning tongues | | Hey Ron
I think my brother (IRONMAN) accidentally posted under my name; I did not send that last post, I am however, willing to endorse what he said, and I also endorse what you said
for as little as thats worth! I hope I do not distort the pace of this thread but lead me just add a though on tongues.
1 Corinthians14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This is the primary use of the gift of tongues. It is a very private gift. It is when you are focused on God that and usually when you are alone that you see unique manifestations with the tongue. All gifts that the Father gives are good, but anything can be abused. After I got the gift of interpretation I realized we have no idea what we are doing or speaking about, people pray for others in tongues with their hands on someones head, while the whole time his spirit is speaking of judgment, the glory of God, the wisdom of God etc. It is almost like saying to someone, let me pray for you and then you put your hand on their head and repeat Hebrews 1 or something like that. It is totally out of context, and I imagine offensive to God. It is an important gift, and the Devil has attacked it well by causing divisions and misuse in the church, but still it is not a gift from which everyone can benefit directly.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
It is when I have edified myself in private that I can now come and edify the church. Speaking to God always edifies but, the mind is unfruitful at times. You do not know what you have prayed about but you have spoken to God and by faith you lay hold of whatever it is that God put on your heart
and tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Speaking in tongues is quite similar to prophesying but we do not know what we are saying so the impact of the words is largely lost. it is of no consequence to you if I speak of all the mysteries of your heart and yet you do not here a word of it.
1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
I have only just recently experienced fellowship close enough for this kind of intimacy. On one occasion we prophesied and I would say the first half of the sentence and Farai (IRONMAN) would say the last half. And then we would say some phrases at the same time. Then we began in tongues and it seemed (I had no interpretation at the time) as though I the Lord was speaking instruction through me to him in the spirit by the expressions we both made. The Lord has used this method some other times after that, even with other believers. I do not believe that the modern church is equipped to allow such closeness in fellowship, it was just a blessing from God that, my brother-in-law/best friend is my prayer partner.
James
_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya
|
|  2005/3/14 9:43 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: Concerning tongues | | We had a thread on 'tongues' some time ago, some may be interested to read it here
_________________
Ron Bailey
|
| | 2005/3/14 10:35 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | Quote:
I speak with tongues; I have done for over 45 years. So I don't want you to misunderstand the point I want to make.
Quote:
Of course God can speak to anyone, anyway, anytime, but 'a word from God' is not 'the word of God'. The scriptures are a unique revelation of the mind of God for all time.
Would you not agree though that a revelation from God is also a unique revelation of the mind of God? I mean it is a personal encounter with God unlike any other. The apostles say little about their personal encounters with God or what gifts God gave them in their writings. I'm sure their dealings with God were very much varied and difficult to explain as have been mine and many others out there too. As far as being an insight into the character of God the bible does show us God's desire over the ages to have a relationship with us (all the covenants He as made) and how to go about having this relationship (through Christ) but the nature of each individual's relationship is such that it can't be simply written down. If the apostles wrote down their day to day walk with God or what gifts they had received people would probably seek after a similar relationship as opposed to the one which God had intended originally. In that aspect the bible is not exhaustive nor is it meant to be. There are just going to be some revelations that you just can't back with the scripture because they are on a personal level which is not adressed in scripture.
Quote:
I am not sure what you are saying here. The 'early apostles' had no books. The earliest writings of the New Testament were probably James and Galatians. But what they did have was a unique equipping of the Spirit which has never been repeated. The early church had the Apostles; we have the writings of the Apostles.
I meant the apostles probably had no literal references to speaking in tongues to back up their speaking in tongues but some of them had that gift right? They probably didn't have an literature to give basis for the gifts of the spirit either and yet they received them. They don't mention many of them by name though because they would be far too numerous and difficult to explain.
Quote:
No other 'utterance' has this authority, so in this sense the bible is 'the be all and end all of the Word of God'. Its omissions were quided by God just as much as its additions. We seem to be missing the original 1 Corinthians; (1 Cor 5:9) we don't have it because it was not necessary for us to have it. Although it may well have contained 'truth' God did not choose this 'truth' as having worldwide and age-lasting signifance. It was no doubt a 'word from God' but it never became 'scripture'. And it is the scriptures which are to be our final court of appeal in all our teachings.
And what if the thing of concern is not adressed by scripture? to what do we turn but God Himself right? At the end of the day that is where the final authority is because that is where the scriptures came from. They came from spirit and should be looked upon as such. All to often we try to rationalize or explain things with our minds and we get all messed up in that. I've been speaking in tongues for only 6 yrs, and for maybe 4 or five of them I've not said anything in the tongues at all. I'm not sure how scripture would adress that but Lately though this has changed. For instance there has been a manifestation of several different tongues, a primary one and some others that are used less often and couple that have been used maybe once or twice. One of them is an angelic one for communication with angels. Now how do I know this? It is just innate knowlegde of the spirit which has been revealed to me. I have nothing in scripture that I can use to convince anyone of that and so in some circles I may be considered a heretic. The closest thing would be the scripture 1 John 2:27 about how the annointing one receives is what teaches and that no man can teach you these things. Perhaps that's why the apostles' personal dealings with God are not mentioned much in scripture, someone at some point would take hold of it and decide that "this is the only way to go"
Ron, my experience with God has shown me that I have made many wromg assumptions about Him and that we all have. In all truth we know nothing of how God works and I'm cool with that because God is teaching me to be open to whatever He has for me no matter how outlandish it may seem. All too often we put God in a box and miss out on SOOO MUCH in terms of revelation and blessing and gifts etc because we hold onto things which are comfortable to us. The richness of our relationship with God is limited only by how open we are to Him, how big we allow Him to be. Your experience with God and mine are pretty different because our responsibilities in the body of Christ require it to be so. We will not always agree nor have anything to substantiate strongly enough to convince one another of what God is doing in our lives.
_________________
Farai Bamu
|
| | 2005/3/14 11:10 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Ironman
Let me start with the 1 John 2:27 reference: But the anointing which [u]ye[/u] have received of him abideth in [u]you[/u], and [u]ye[/u] need not that any man teach [u]you[/u]: but as the same anointing teacheth [u]you[/u] of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught [u]you[/u], [u]ye[/u] shall abide in him.(1Jo 2:27 KJV)You may not have noticed this unless you are using an old KJV bible, but each one of the words underlined above it plural. The significance is that John was not writing to individuals in this sense but to the whole church. It is the same kind of thing seen in Paul when he says 'we have the mind of Christ'; not I but we. There is safety in the body.
You may have seen some contributions from Jake aka bubbaguy. You may not realise it but your conclusions will take you in the same direction. You are right that it is God who gives us the truth, but is the final court of appeal your 'sense of what God has said to you' or 'Jake's witness' or the 'Word of God'?
Let me tell you a true story which happened to young woman. She began to 'listen' to the voice of God in the ordinary patterns of life. It was always accurate. It told her which job to apply for and even where to buy her clothes. It would tell her where to cross the street and which queue to stand it. She began to depend upon it more and more and it never let her down. One day it said "would you like to see God?" "More than anything," she replied. The voice directed her into the bathroom and to the medicine cabinet and to a large bottle of pills... and she realised where the voice had been coming from.
This is why God has put us into families and given us the written scripture; for safety. It is true that God will bring experiences into your life that you cannot 'prove' from the scripture, but there are principles in scripture which will cover every part of your life.
tongues are a language whereby a man speaks to God and consequently edifies himself. As this is a public forum I will not say too much here, but God will not give you a language with which to communicate with angels. He will not. If you want to know why I say that please use the internal email on the site.
_________________
Ron Bailey
|
| | 2005/3/14 11:39 | Profile | Eli_Barnabas
Member
Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah
| | Re: | | Quote:
Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit for us today?
You better believe it! ;-)
_________________
Eli Brayley
|
| | 2005/3/14 11:43 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
As for angelic tongues I know them to exist. There is no biblical basis for this but there is nothing in the bible to refute it either. This is an experience that I have had and can only share. I have nothing in scripture that backs it upThat is what I know God to have willed in my life and unless you were to experience it for yourself it would be abstract.
Jimm, thank you for your kind response. :-)
I think your reasoning is kinda dangerous. The only mention of toungues of angels was when Paul was saying that if he spoke in the tongues of men and angels, but has not love... he is nothing.
Thats like me saying "if I drive a VW Bug or a Lambourgini... but do not have love, it means nothing".
He was making a point, not declaring a doctrine that believers can speak in the tongues of angels.
It matters not what you have experienced. There are a lot of things that go on in some "Christian" circles that are not addressed or refuted by the Bible... but that doesnt make them right. Take snake handlers for example.
If a doctrine or practice is not in the Bible, then by it's own definition, it is [b]unBiblical[/b]. Just because something isnt refuted doesnt make it right. Thats not even logical. That means I could come up with something totally whacky and not supported in the Bible, but if it's not directly refuted, then it must be true.
Sorry... not buying it. The scriptures are complete, and everything we need to know in order to live out our salvation is in there. Period.
Experiences mean nothing because we [b]all[/b] are too easily deceived.
Krispy |
| | 2005/3/14 12:14 | | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | Krispy
I'm not saying that I should be believd at all, I'm just sharing what I believe fervently God has done in my life. I'm not saying that everything that is unbiblical is right, that's just not true. What I am saying is that what I have seen and felt God do in me and through me is just God's hand at work in a way I never would have thought possible and I'll leave it at that. He has confirmed that to me already. I know Paul was not declaring a doctrine when he mentioned the tongue of angels. even his apostleship and revelations we questioned in some circles too.
Quote:
That means I could come up with something totally whacky and not supported in the Bible, but if it's not directly refuted, then it must be true.
the thing is I didn't come up with any of this, in fact I was really skeptical of it all untill God started to confirm the authenticity of it in spirit. I'm not saying to anyone jump on my bandwagon or anything like that, I'm just saying that the way God works is so much more intricate than we can dare to imagine.
Doesn't God use experiences in our lives to confirm the word in the bible? I mean we could quote scripture after scripture but if we have nothing in our lives to tie it to it means nothing.
_________________
Farai Bamu
|
| | 2005/3/14 13:06 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | Quote:
tongues are a language whereby a man speaks to God and consequently edifies himself. As this is a public forum I will not say too much here, but God will not give you a language with which to communicate with angels. He will not. If you want to know why I say that please use the internal email on the site.
could you email me at [email protected] on that.
_________________
Farai Bamu
|
| | 2005/3/14 13:08 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | In response to the original question/topic of the discussion, yes the holy spirit's baptism is for us today. I do apologize for my part in deviating from the original topic in all sincerety.
_________________
Farai Bamu
|
| | 2005/3/14 13:28 | Profile | ZekeO
Member
Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: Jumping out the pan into the fire | | Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:
If a doctrine or practice is not in the Bible, then by it's own definition, it is [b]unBiblical[/b].
I think that the right term would [b]abiblical[/b]
Krispy do you wash your congregations feet? More than likely you do, the way Gods wheel turns. :-P
_________________
Zeke Oosthuis
|
| | 2005/3/14 13:50 | Profile |
|
