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If tbe Apostles were real people undergoing persecution in the first century. And of course I believe they were. Then what are the 100 million believers who are under some form of pesecution today?
It is estimated that every 3 to 5 minutes someone is martyred for the name of Jesus. More Christians have been martyred for the name of Jesus then in all of 2000 years of church history.
In N. Korea there are approximately 30 to 50 thousand believers imprisoned in concentration camps for their faith in Jesus Christ. They die in those camps. In Eritrea over 3000 believers imorisoned in shipping containers. In Iran there are over 400 believers imprisoned for their faith and so on.
In Nigeria loved ones weep for those killed in bomb blast that rip through churches. Others are maimed and crippled. Others tortured.
Saints when John was told in Rev.13 that if any are to go into prison. To prison they will go. If any are to be killed with the sword. With the sword they will be killed. . Thus calls for patient endurance and the faithfulness on tbe part of the saints
We see at the end of Rev.12 that the dragon is making war against the offspring of the woman. Those who are keeping tbe commandments of God and holding to the testimony of Jesus. The profiles I read tell me Satan's war against the saints still continues. And will continue until Christ returns.
If Revelation was fulfilled in the first century as some argue then this is one whacked out millennium we are living in. I suggest someone needs to check their theology. There is still a future fulfillment of Revelation to come. Personally I have not seen King Jesus return.
| 2013/1/25 9:31|
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In 2 Timothy 3 Paul writes " All scripture IS God breathed". Not WAS God breathed. Those who are reasoning a first century fulfillment of Revelation are missing tbe ongoing prophetic inspiration of scripture.
At tbe end of each if the seven churches John writes " He that has an ear let him hear what tbe Spirit is saying to tbe churches". Not was saying.
Those who argue for a first century fulfilment of Revelation are reducing tbe Bible to merely a history book. In which case you lose the power of the word. Most notedly the power that comes from saying " It is written".
| 2013/1/25 9:49|
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My information comes from Robert Mounce, Biblical languages scholar who wrote Basics of Biblical Greek and other like works. To quote him specifically, "What is not generally stressed is that this solution asks us to calculate a Hebrew transliteration of the Greek form of a Latin name, and that with a defective spelling." This is from his commentary on the book of Revelation edited by F.F. Bruce
According to Church historians David Brady in his book, The Contribution of British Writers Between 1560 and 1830 to the Interpretation of Revelation, and William Milligan, Discussions on the Apocalypse, the attribution of the number of the name of the beast to Nero did not take place until the nineteenth century attributed to four German scholars, over 1,800 years after the writing of the book.
I believe internal evidence supports a late date of the writing of the book and is against an early date. I'll talk about Smyrna again. In Polycarp's letter to the Church at Philipi, Polycarp (the leader of the Church at Smyrna) specifically states that there was no Church in his city during the time that Paul ministered in Asia Minor. Polycarp attributes his conversion and the founding of the Smyrna Church to the ministry of the apostle John. John's ministry to the Churches surrounding Ephesus did not begin until after the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 64-68 when he fled there to escape the Roman/Jewish war. The Church at Smyrna didn't exist at the time of the fall of Jerusalem which is a key time reference for proponents of an early date for Revelation.
The Greek you mentioned "Must soon take place" is one Greek verb and the nuance cannot be adequately translated. It does not mean that it must happen in a short period of time after the warning is given. There is a way to say that in Greek and John didn't use that Greek construction. The Greek can be properly understood as the things that are going to take place will happen quickly. In other words, it won't be a drawn out process once the process begins.
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey
| 2013/1/25 9:53||Profile|
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The theory that John wrote in the 90s is modern churchian myhtology and is about as valid as the Jesus Seminar's assertion that "John" was written in 120 AD. The internal evidence is what clues us in to an early dating.
Upon what evidence do you base this assertion?
Everything that I have ever read from scholars has dated the Book of Revelation between 68-96 A.D. -- with the vast majority placing it ~95 A.D. The few who contend that Revelation was written earlier (DURING the life of Nero) seem to do so without offering anything tangible in terms of evidence to validate their claims.
If Nero was the "beast" mentioned in Revelation, then it seems to invalidate the notion that these things would happen "after" John saw them. After all, Nero was already on a rampage by those earlier suggested dates. Also, there are many things that were seen during the Revelation that do not seem to have happened...yet.
Perhaps you can include your reasons and evidence for dating of the Book of Revelation during the reign of Nero?
| 2013/1/25 13:42||Profile|
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Your words about nero and the number of the beast. What are we supposed to do with that? As far as I am concerned it seems as if you just proved that Nero was the Beast and the end times was then and not now. This is how I interpret what you said in your post.
This is a small reason why I don't study alot of 'end times' stuff because it leads down so many dead end roads because so many people have so many opinions and read so many things into even the Book of Revelations. It is really tiring in the end.
Numeric values really don't mean anything to me when it comes to name. It is just like someone being called a certain name because it means a certain thing. People do it today but does that name really reflect who that person is? It doesn't mean alot to me in the end.
| 2013/1/25 16:01||Profile|
| Re: Ok. I am confused|
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and the testimony they had maintain.
If the end times had occurred in the first century. Then why are believers still being martyred today for their faith in Jesus Christ. In 2012 approximately 200,000 believers laid down tbeir lives for the Lord Jesus.
He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone to be killed with the sword, with the the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
Again if the events of Revelation were fulfilled in tbe first century. Then why are Christians still being imprisoned and martyred for the Lord Jesus. According to this view we should be ruling and reigning in tbe kingdom with King Jesus.
As I posted earlier this is one whacked out millennium we are living in if Jesus has already returned.
| 2013/1/25 18:00|
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I dont believe that all of Revelation has a past fulfillment; although I do believe that quite a bit does. I do believe that Christ will return, so I am not a full preterist- but I do not believe he will return twice (once to rapture the Church and then a second Second Coming).
I do believe that most if not all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD.
Bear, onviously Revelation is written in highly symbolic and figurative language. It is apocalytic writing. You simply can't read it literally, just like a lot of Isaiah and Ezekiel cannot be interpreted literally.
So you may have a picture in your mind of the "Millenium" that may simply something you have created in your mind. Be open to the idea that your picture may not be 100% correct, because i hate to tell you that it may not be. If there is one thing I have learned when it comes to end times stuff, it is not to hold too tight to any one interpretation. There is not enough clarity in the passages to allow for such a thing.
| 2013/1/25 22:01||Profile|
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TMK, you subscribe to the Preterist view of Revelation, do you not?
| 2013/1/25 22:06||Profile|
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Then TMK can you or anyone in your camp.address the issues I raised. If you are holding to a view or partial view.of Revelation being fulfilled in tbe first century . Why is there still imprisonment and martyrdom of Christians in the 21st century?
| 2013/1/25 22:22|
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While I'm a pre-millenialist, I agree with TMK that the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.68-70 is very related to Christ's teaching on the end times.
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey
| 2013/1/25 23:26||Profile|