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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : faith as a grain of mustard seed or faith as small as a mustard seed ??

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 faith as a grain of mustard seed or faith as small as a mustard seed ??

KJV
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith ((as)) a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 ((Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.))

Or NIV

16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17 “O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as (((small))) as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.[a]”verse 21 ((??))

.


Are these saying the same things ??

 2013/1/19 14:57Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5830
NC, USA

 Re: faith as a grain of mustard seed or faith as small as a mustard seed ??

If you are asking whether "faith as a grain of mustard seed" is saying the same thing as "faith as small as a mustard seed" I would say, for all intents and purposes, yes.

A mustard seed is small, after all.

You must think they are setting forth different thoughts.

Please tell us why.

I would argue, however, that "unbelief" is very different from having "little faith." I like the KJV version of this passage better, mainly for this reason.


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Todd

 2013/1/19 22:05Profile
arkp
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 51


 Re:

TMK,

"If you are asking whether faith as a grain of mustard seed is saying that same thing as faith as small as a mustard seed; I would say, for all intents and purposes, yes".

I would say, if Faith "Be" the size of a mustard seed!

"I would argue, however, that "Unbelief" is very different from having "little faith". I like the KJV version of this passage better, mainly for this reason"

I agree TMK,

Faith says = I can -- Unbelief says = I can't

Until they tried.

 2013/1/20 18:52Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: faith as a grain of mustard seed or faith as small as a mustard seed ??

The word kjv translated as (as) or the NIV and NASB translated as (small) is the Greek word:

(wJß)
Transliterated Word (Hos)

Strong's Definition: as, like, even as, etc.

The KING James translates the word (Hos)

(as) 342 times
(when) 42 times
(how) 18 times
(as it were) 20 times
(about) 14 times
miscellaneous 56 times

The New American Standard translates the word (Hos)

(about) 20 times
(according) 2 times
(affected) 1 times
(after) 2 times
(appear*) 1 time
(appeared) 1 time
(effect) 1 time
(how) 20 times
(however) 1 time
(if) 10 times
(just) 6 times
(just like) 1 time
(like) 106 times
(namely) 1 times
(one) 2 times
(same way) 1 time
(seeing) 1 time
(since) 2 times
(size) 1 time
(so) 3 times
(though) 15 times
(way) 1 time
(when) 53 times
(whenever*) 1 time
(where) 1 time
(while) 10 times

 2013/1/20 20:09Profile
arkp
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 51


 Re:

Proupapa,

You're quantitaive anaylysis seems to say that less is more, with the exception of like which appears 106 times in the New American Standard translation.

Would it be safe to say that the same applies to the NIV and the NASB? sorry.

 2013/1/21 5:47Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 mustard seed

All of the verses that talk about the mustard seed

Matthew 13
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Matthew 17
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 4
30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Luke 13
18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?

19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.


Luke ch 17
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 2013/1/22 18:29Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5830
NC, USA

 Re: mustard seed

Hey proudpapa--

I am fairly decently educated but I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

What are you trying to tell us?

Are you saying that the word "small" does not belong in the text?

thanks,

TK


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Todd

 2013/1/22 18:47Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: TMK

Hi TMK

TMK wrote ///Hey proudpapa--

I am fairly decently educated but I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

What are you trying to tell us?

Are you saying that the word "small" does not belong in the text?///

My opinion Is that the word NIV "small" or NASB "size" are not good translations for the greek (wJß)(Hos) and totaly throw off what I personly feel is being taught.






 2013/1/22 20:03Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """My opinion Is that the word NIV "small" or NASB "size" are not good translations for the greek (wJß)(Hos) and totaly throw off what I personly feel is being taught."""

What is being taught?


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Phillip

 2013/1/22 20:52Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5830
NC, USA

 Re:

Yes, proudpapa please tell us what you think is being taught.

Let's have a conversation; if i knew what you were trying to say perhaps I might even agree with you.

TK


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Todd

 2013/1/22 21:13Profile





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