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Cindy

Angyl,

I would ask you: is there any scripture which shows men correctly being able to apply and know the exact time of His coming? In other words, they are "looking up" during the day of His coming, in expectation? I don't see any evidence of this 'knowledge' in the BOR. If we are to use the 1260 days, when do they begin? Dan. 12:10-13 speaks of this time period as well. Will all who believe and follow the Lord KNOW the exact day of His return and which scriptures are speaking of which current events?

I think if men 'could' rightly discern the day of His coming, wouldn't we see evidence of this in the Word of God? I see destruction, then shock when people realize the "wrath of God" is now come (Rev. 6:12-17, 11:11-18). I think those who are still "alive and remaining (surviving all around---I Thess. 4:15,17, Mk. 13:20)" will know the SEASON----and they are told to watch when they see the SEASON starting to occur. If the "thief" passages are to apply to a pre-trib rapture, why the "watching"? What are we watching for if there is nothing which needs to happen before His coming? It seems to me that Jesus spoke very plainly about many things which need to happen prior to His return. That's why He states: When you SEE ALL THESE THINGS, look up for your redemption draws close/near........what things shall we see?...........as in the days of Noah: ungodliness was rampant, life was going on as usual----- false prophets, deception, itching ears, men lovers of themselves, covenant and peace breakers, liars, rebellious children-----signs in the stars, sun, moon, men's hearts failing them for fear of what's coming, sea and waves roaring, heavens shaken (sounds very much like Rev. 6:12-17) ........When we see all things (Lk. 21:31)know that the kingdom of God is close and then.......they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory (Lk. 21:27, Mt. 24:30, Mt. 13:27, Rev. 6:16-17, 11:15-18, Rev. 19:11-16. Blessings in Him, Cindy

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Cindy

1 Thess, 5:9 God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ
Please explain

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Wayne Ferrel

God did not send the flood until Noah and his family were safe in the ark. God did not destroy Sodom until Lot was taken out

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Wayne Ferrel

Noah was saved through the storm, not from the storm.
Certainly all the "signs" that Jesus spoke about are all about us. When Jesus says "when you see", we have to remember who is doing the "seeing". Is it the eyes of 21st century american He is speaking of? Is it the Nigerian? Or is the the Israelite? We tend to judge everything from our own perspective. Sometimes this gets us into deep trouble.
The bible tells us that when Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, the 7 year trib will begin. When this happens, if there is nobody "missing" among those who "call themselves christians", then it means one of two things. Either one is not really a christian, or there is no pre-trib rapture. Then what?
The church at large today seems to be focused on leaving. The Holy Spirit is interested in how many can be saved before the Father says it is enough. One of our young posters here has in his signature lines the following:
"Evangelism is the cure for the disease known as church boredom". I say amen and amen.
We have lost our vision for souls. We sit around in our glut of all gluts waiting on Jesus to snatch us out of our palaces and into His. We expect the operation of "gifts" in our services to "entertain,...ah, I mean bless us". The operation of the gifst of the Holy Spirit without the harvest is like a brand new farm tractor up on blocks with no wheels. It is simply a fine machine but it's not going anywhere. It's not accomplishing it's intended function. We are waiting on God, while God is waitng on someone who will bring in the harvest.
A rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked Him a question. Most any bible reader knows this story. Beloved, you and I are far richer than this young man who faced Jesus that day. That rich young ruler could not imagine the luxury even a modest american family lives in. Dont think of Bill Gates or Donald Trump when you read "rich young ruler". What was Jesus' reply to his question? How will you respond to His question?
What good will a Pre-trib rapture do if your life or mine is ended today? How important will the rapture be to you or I if we alone have to stand before God today? Today? What will we answer when He askes us what we did with our "gifts" and talents. "Oh we set them on a shelf Lord, waiting on Jesus to come". Will God be able to say "well done good and faithful servant"? Before you answer, remember God cannot lie. "But Lord, we cast out demons in your name and prophecied". What will be His reply? "But Lord, you preached in our streets and in our synagoues." What will be His reply? Will you be thrilled with His answer? Will the rapture of the church be important to you at that time?
When Jesus does come and sits upon His Throne and divides the nations as a sheperd divides the sheep from the goats, what will He ask you? What will your answer be? Matthew 25:31-46. Will the rapture of the church "doctrine" have anything to do with His question or your or my reply? Selah!
Saints, we need to begin to live what the bible teaches instead of debating what it says. Our knowlege of scripture will matter naught if there is no personal relationship with the Father, throug the Son, by the Holy Spirit. To know to do good and not do it is sin. Are you content with the way your life is going. Can others see Jesus in you....or me? Does our life exhibit a fountain of charity? (Charity is agape love = love plus benevalence as in Matthew 25:31-46). Love is just a condition of the heart. Charity is a way of life. Who have you been a blessing too of late? Who have I? These are very serious questions. Why? Because they are very serious to Jesus. What will your answer be? What will mine be? We had better be right. "But Lord, I knew that you were coming pre-trib". Does that not sound a bit shallow to you? It does to me. Selah!

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Cindy

...this is true. Those who are His are offered the Cross. Tozer once said, "God crucifies without pity, those whom He wishes to raise without measure". Selah. Now, you may be interested in reading "Foxes Book of Martyrs".

It would be well beyond the scope of this thread to deal with the issues involved in pretribulational rapturism. There are some very learned men and women who hold this view and can defend it quite well. Yet, no matter who is dealing with the topic, to be honest we have to stop and understand that with prophecy we just do not know.

Keep in mind that the Jews knew with certainty the when of the first coming of Messiah, but they did not know with certainty the what (what He would be doing). It is the exact opposite for us as we know with great certainty the what, but are uncertain of the when. The uncertainty opens the door for man to be tried by fire. The Jews were tried because they had Messianic concepts that were birthed of their own aspirations and had nothing to do with God. It was their selfish 'take' on what the prophets said. What happened? When things did not go according to their 'interpretation' of the prophets- everything blew apart for them. They were an evil and adulterous generation and they had it all figured out. Yet there was no way they could forge Christ into their 'mold.' What did they do? After He was crucified and rose again in 135 CE a Jewish Rabbi by the name of Akiba (Akiva) appointed Simon Bar. Kochba as the true Messiah and since then the Jews have been locked up in Rabbinic Judaism and Israel was totaly destroyed as we once knew it.

How does that apply to us? We are in danger that if the 'when' does not go down like we think it should that we likewise would follow a false Messiah. What would happen if we woke up and heard that everyone was to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead or they cannot buy or sell? No rapture has taken place- so what do we do? Do we take the mark and say "well, this cannot be the mark of the beast because the rapture has not taken place." Or do we say, well we didn't know for sure when the Lord was going to return but he was pretty clear on the right hand or forehead thing- so we better not take any mark on us.


Wayne asked about the whole 'appointed unto wrath' issue. My answer to that is that there will be no Saints here when the wrath of God is poured out save the 144,000. They will have been either 'raptured' or 'martyred.' Wrath must not be confused with persecution. The Church is suffering martyrs as we speak and has since the New Testament period. Jesus talked about loving our life or loosing it for His sake. He talked about being faithful to the end. many such passages. only in America can we envision a Christianity that can stroll into the pearly gates without any real persecution.

What shall we do? Be ye ready- for in such an hour as you think not , the Lord doth come.

God Bless,

-Robert

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Robert Wurtz II