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jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

@Krispy

Medical use of a given drug is altogether a different idea, this might be where one should apply common sense perhaps? I certainly agree many consider alcohol a grey area yet sometimes think it to be a substitute term for compromise.
I also believe scripture goes deeper than the letter of the word as the law did with the pharisees.
The use of the "water to wine" miracle poses some questions for me as well Krispy. I find it difficult to understand how Jesus could have provided a means to allow the guests to further a probable intoxicated state and still claim to be sinless. Which would tend to indicate the word wine was not always a reference to a fermented drink. Paul's recommendation to Timothy could have easily been meant as simple grape juice. If we trace the word "wine" backward, from English, to Latin, to Greek and then Hebrew, we find the four words, wine, vinum, oinos, and yayin have been used historically to refer to either or both fermented or unfermented juice. Just as many today use the word "coke" genericaly to refer to a soft drink or soda rather than a specific "coca-cola".
I would still like to hear an expounded explanation of the word "pharmakeia" as I think it to be very pertinent to the discussion.
Thanks for the reply Krispy and no, I did not feel accused of lacking common sense though I may display that trait at times. LOL

edited in "@Krispy"

 2012/12/8 10:19Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

@Approved

I very much understand your statements and my prayers go up for your sister as well as you and other loved ones. Unfortunately mankind has always had a problem of shifting personal focus from Christ to himself. I too, am no different I'm afraid. Life is often a struggle and we want to take care of things on our own and as often as not fail.
Still, I think it imperative we understand the truth in scripture and though I dislike the term "grey area" this topic would seem to fall into such a category. I do not wish to offer incorrect information to anyone seeking answers of this matter and feel it an obligation to learn and understand scriptural teaching on the subject.

 2012/12/8 11:06Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1364
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Here is what doesn't make sense to me with this topic. On one hand Paul says to use a little wine for it does the belly good. Probably talking about red wine because it is good for the body. Yet, Jesus made wine at the party after it was gone and everyone was full He made it anyway. Why did Jesus do this for alcohol is alcohol. It seems it contributed to drunkeness. I had one person tell me the alcohol wasn't potent which I laughed at. Really? people will usually drink alcohol to get drunk and I don't think it would be any different with that scene. So why did that incident happen?


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John

 2012/12/8 11:18Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

Approved, am so sorry about your sister - I know this grieves yo deeply - I can sense it in your post.

I find it very revealing as to why males are the ones who will defend the use of alcohol consumed socially. We see it here on this forum and elsewhere. For example, I did a search yesterday on the effects of alcohol on sperm...on that website (that discussed alcohol use by pregnant women and males who father children) it was mentioned several times about the men how they drink and their wives want them to stop. The point being males have an affinity to alcohol. I do not understand. Alcohol works to anesthetize a persons emotions, conscience - is this why it is so attractive to males?


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Sandra Miller

 2012/12/8 11:24Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

@amrkelly

Thanks so much. I almost missed the post but took the liberty of saving your reply. (very helpful) Hope that's ok? Care to confirm, rebut, expound on, or reject my statements of the word "wine"?

 2012/12/8 11:39Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

[QUOTE] by DEADn on 2012/12/8 7:18:49

Here is what doesn't make sense to me with this topic. On one hand Paul says to use a little wine for it does the belly good. Probably talking about red wine because it is good for the body. Yet, Jesus made wine at the party after it was gone and everyone was full He made it anyway. Why did Jesus do this for alcohol is alcohol. It seems it contributed to drunkeness. I had one person tell me the alcohol wasn't potent which I laughed at. Really? people will usually drink alcohol to get drunk and I don't think it would be any different with that scene. So why did that incident happen?




That question puzzled me for a long time as well since knowing Jesus was/is without sin there must be an answer. That thought prompted me to do some word searches on words mentioned in my reply to Krispy which led me to my current thoughts of which are the basis expressed in that post. Mind you, I'm no expert and as Krispy states, this really is a seeming "grey area".

 2012/12/8 11:55Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

QUOTE: by ginnyrose on 2012/12/8 7:24:15

I find it very revealing as to why males are the ones who will defend the use of alcohol consumed socially. /QUOTE

I think you are correct, though we may be seeing a change in those percentages as of later years. Do you think historically (pre 60's-70's) men for the most part experienced the bulk of the stress due to the responsibilities he felt in being the only provider and considering the social position of women at the time? Of course immediately after WWII I think alcohol use in this country took a huge leap as well as soldiers returned home. In todays [U.S.] world many women are faced with those same issues and responsibilities thus placing them under more stress than before. Just thoughts.
I think it was Billy Sunday who coined the phrase, "Wiskey is alright in it's place, but it's place is in hell".

 2012/12/8 12:10Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re:

@ginnyrose

I hope I'm not over posting here and boring those of you who are much more scholarly than I. But as an after thought
concerning "the male's propensity to alcohol":

I don't believe in coincidence and the first mention of intoxication in scripture I find is in the story of Noah,
a male. We know how that went. Noah most assuredly brought the knowledge of wine making with him to this new world from the pre flood world. A world which grieved God that He had even created man. There must surely be a tremendous object lesson here if one could only find it.

 2012/12/8 12:54Profile









 Re: Greg Laurie: Is It Acceptable for Christians to Drink?

Quote:
Care to confirm, rebut, expound on, or reject my statements of the word "wine"? jimur.



The Greek word used for wine in the wedding feast is the most common used word when it is translated wine. In John 2:9 this word is oinos (οἰ̂νος). The anglicised word is vino or wine from the Latin as you have shared. There is another use of the word used and this gives some light on what you have shared. It is the word gleukos (γλευ̂κος). This word is the root of the anglicised word glucose. As the translation suggest this is “sweet wine”. It is used in Acts 2:13 on the day of Pentecost when the disciples were accused of being drunk. It takes a long time to ferment wine into sweet wine and the longer the process the greater degree of alcohol is produced. However this must be qualified. Without adding the passage of time and a particularly sweet grape this process will eventually foul and produce vinegarish wine. This is the type of wine which the Lord was offered on the cross.

By implication the word οἰ̂νος in John 2:9 is accompanied both in time and in meaning with the word new or fresh. New wine has no alcohol and fresh wine means the same. Naturally the miracle was taking water and making fresh wine with it. Therefore I would deduce by reason that the wine at the feast could not have been alcoholic . It was a miracle in time and visibility. The time passage would have been just as long as it took the Lord to sanctify the water into wine by His authority. The reference to old in this same passage does not mean old in time “into alcohol with gleukos”, it means cheiron (χείρων), vexing or stale.

If you begin to look into the Hebrew:


“And Noah began to be a husbandman, and planted a vineyard: and he drank of the wine, and was drunken. And he was uncovered within his tent.” Genesis 9:20-21

20 וַיָּ֥חֶל נֹ֖חַ אִ֣ישׁ הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה וַיִּטַּ֖ע כָּֽרֶם׃
21 וַיֵּ֥שְׁתְּ מִן־הַיַּ֖יִן וַיִּשְׁכָּ֑ר וַיִּתְגַּ֖ל בְּת֥וֹךְ אָהֳלֹֽה׃

The word for vine yard or vine is yayin as you have shared.

The adjunction to Timothy to take little wine for his stomach is (1 Timothy 5:23) is oinos (οἰ̂νος) or fresh wine. Blessings.

 2012/12/8 13:10
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1364
Lakeland FL

 Re:

amrkelly

It sort of sounds to me as if 'wine' can be translated wine in some reference and grape juice in others? For wine to be wine it has to have some kind of alcoholic content in it. Even a wine cooler has alcohol but not like regular wine. Something seems fishy to me here.

In the Spanish language they use different words for the same word but to put a reference on what it is meaning whereas in the English language it isn't that way. One has to take the word into context to understand it but in Spanish the word tells you by its nature what it refers in conversation. Does Hebrew and Greek not do this? I often think that because English is so one dimensional we mis ALOT but not understand what specific words are supposed to be or refer to. Love has various meaning and in English it isn't easy to understand how it refers in varous contexts. It can be easily taken out of context and so give way to false doctrine.


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John

 2012/12/8 14:29Profile





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