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Good words, brother Frank.
| 2012/11/26 0:27||Profile|
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This is in response to you Appolus,
You said "Catholics at their core believe that one must be sanctified in order to be justified".
That is correct, we see Justification as a process.
The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man" (Rom 7:23; Eph 3:16), Justification entails the sanctification of his whole being. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no 1995)
As Christians good works are performed in order that the Grace that God has given us may be lived out do that we may become more like Christ.
Final Justification (the crown of Righteousness), is awarded for keeping the faith and perserving (2Tim 4:7-8; 1Pet 5:4)
(Cited from 'Return to Rome:Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic' Francis J Beckwith)
| 2012/11/26 6:43|
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You also said that our work is "Gods work in us".
This has always been taught in Catholism.
The Charity of Christ is the source in is of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no 2011)
If at the end of your very good works..., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to is, we shall also rest in you on the Sabbath of Eternal life. (St Augustine)
| 2012/11/26 6:56|
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"I praise the Lord that there are millions of ex Catholics who are now genuine Christians and have the assurance that we are talking about"
Would you therefore go so far as to say that any practicing Catholic is not born again? Just curious.
| 2012/11/26 11:36||Profile|
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Isn't strange that we have the term " practising Catholic." I think the propestant world needs such a phrase :) Anyway, to answer your question I would say, yes. If one is practising Catholicism, one is working his way to heaven which is impossible. If a man or a woman has genuinly been born again, he will have the Spirit of truth in Him and the Spirit will lead and guide him or her into all truth, this is the Word of God. Now, there may be a process of coming out, I can certainly see that, but that would be for the very few. The vast majority of the millions of Catholics who have discovered the true Jesus as apposed to Eucharist, leave immediately.
I was asked by the dean of a " Christian college" one time why Catholics who come to Jesus in Mexico immediately leave the Catholic church and no longer want to be identified as a Catholic. I was amazed at this mans lack of knowledge and discerment. As I stated before, this is the slow march to the great whore church.........bro Frank
| 2012/11/26 11:51|
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"That is correct, we see Justification as a process."
Thank you for your clarity Andie. Brothers and sisters, what Andie has just explained tells you why a Catholic cannot have assurance of salvation, even although the Scriptures teach this. It is by observance of the Sacraments that enables a Catholic, in their minds, to enter heaven. You will never find a knowlegable Catholic who will tell you that if they died today they would go to heaven, because according to their dogma, one cannot possibly know that. Again Andie, thank you for your clarity. Obviously we are not going to agree but I always appreciate a Catholic who at least know what he believes............Frank
| 2012/11/26 11:56|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
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"Those who are self-righteous and rely on works or grace plus works will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Idolatry is not only the adoration of images but also the trusting in one's own righteousness, works and merits." - Martin Luther
Martin Luther in the end of his life wrote this:
"The Christian is a strange bird. Some are certainly learning how to repeat words like a parrot. Their hearts, however, do not grasp the meaning, and they make no progress. They exalt the Gospel only in words. They do as they please, following their fleshly desires and becoming more sinful as before."
Our "trust" must be in the person, the living Christ in relationship with him, knowing Him. And just to know the "Gospel only in words" will not help anyone to have eternal life in them. Such Luther saw as the entire german country became lutheran yet there was life in only few. He re-did a protestant version of the catholic system in his own country and bore only marginally better results. For the remnant was still in the Catholic system before it was spewed out in anger by the Popes edicts.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2012/11/26 11:58||Profile|
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Here is a good example of the apostle Paul's assurance
"So I beat my body and make it my slave, lest after preached to others I myself should be rejected."
Paul so linked faith and obedience, he preached
"the obedience of the faith" and "taught all men everywhere that they must repent, turn to God and do works worthy of repentance."
James so linked obedience that he wrote "faith without works is dead, being alone."
Most protestants believe we must "repent and believe the gospel."
Peter taught that by diligently adding to our faith, having the things we add in abundance, doing these things will prevent us from falling and insure a good welcome into the eternal kingdom. He encouraged his readers to make their own calling and election sure by this process.
Mercy and repentance are inseparable. Genuine mercy is evidenced by "repentance unto life." There are scriptures that seem to indicate we must repent to receive mercy and others that indicate God's mercy grants men repentance. Either way, neither will exist without the other. It's like the chicken and the egg question. Whichever ever one came first is not so important. If you don't have both, neither will continue for long.
Repent and believe and being granted faith unto repentance are always linked where true grace is at work.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2012/11/26 13:30||Profile|
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I agree Makrothumia.
Anyway I thought I would post some scriptures that I believe support the Catholic position of Justification as a process. As Catholics we believe "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved".
Justification as a past event: Rom 5:1-2; Rom 5:9; Rom 8:24; 1Cor 6:11
Justification as a continuing process: 1Cor 1:18; 1Cor 15:2; 2Cor 2:15
Justification as something not yet fully achieved: Rom 2:13; Gal 5:5; 1Cor 3:15; 1Cor 5:5; 1Tim 2:15; 2Tim 4:8; 2Tim 4:18
| 2012/11/26 15:19|
| Teaching them "to obey all things as much as I have commanded you." |
God showed John a revelation through an angel who testified to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. John opened his letter with these words Blessed is the one reading, and the ones hearing the words of this prophecy and obeying the things being written in it, for the time is near.
John closed the same book with these words I Jesus sent forth my angel to testify to you(plural) these things unto the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright early morning star, And the Spirit and the bride say come! And the one hearing, let him say come! And the one thirsting let come! The one willing let take of the water of life without cost! I bear witness to every hearing of these words of the prophecy of this scroll. If anyone should add upon these, God will place upon him the plagues having been written in this book. And if anyone should remove from the words of this book of prophecy, may God remove his portion from the tree of life and from the holy city of the things having been written in this book.
Anyone who attempts to remove the word obey from the prophecy John received shall have his share in the tree of life and his place in the holy city removed. Those who add to what God has said or who take away from what God has said, God Himself will reprove as liars and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. We should be very careful of making any statement that voids the commands of God by our tradition even if it came from the reformation.
Everyone who is a genuine believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and only that anointing is true and is no lie. This is the only way to prevent being deceived by the many antichrists who are already in the world. There are many false teachers introducing destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves and many are following after them into their destruction. Many men profess to know God (they claim to have faith), but in works they deny Him. Paul warned that there would be many having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. We should listen to his advice and turn away from them. Everyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, and sadly this persecution comes from within almost as much as from without the church.
Everyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, in that moment, bears witness against himself that he is under obligation to obey every word of the Lord Jesus. Jesus said Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say. He also said Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one doing the will of My Father in heaven. Everyone who believes Jesus is Lord obligates himself by that belief to obey the commands of the Lord who he has entrusted himself to. One cannot believe in the Lord Jesus and deny a single word the Lord. Prolonged failure to obey the Lord is either evidence of a false profession or a contradiction of stated faith.
While it is possible to stumble while sincerely attempting to obey the Lord, it is not possible to continually deny the Lord in any area He has asked for complete submission. The difference between a slip going in the right direction and walking in the opposite direction becomes clear eventually. Refusal to obey the Lord in any area is denial of His right as Lord and Master. Introducing destructive heresies and denying the Lord are two traits linked to the false teachers that will deceive many and lead them unto destruction. These men are soulish men without the Holy Spirit, who follow after the lusts of the flesh and cause divisions in the church. They promise men freedom while being slaves of depravity. They also blaspheme other believers without fear, especially in matters they do not understand. These men cause the way of the truth to be brought into ill repute. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2012/11/26 15:52||Profile|