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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are the people of Israel estranged brothers and sisters?

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lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Might we consider the audience in Rome as being of a different makeup from the one in Jerusalem. That is in branch but not in root. The words regarding pride in grafting of the wild branch would have no application to The believers in Israel other than the reminder of the grace of God toward the Gentiles, which in itself was something they were in awe of, being both participant and spectator, to His overwhelming Grace through His Son our Lord and Savior.

A very healthy discussion and could not be more relevant in this day.

 2012/11/22 11:53Profile









 Re:

I agree with Lylewisr that this.thread could be a healtdy discussion. It was nit open with thr intention to promote contoversy. But to get some honest feedback. There are some believers who regard.the Jewish people as estranged brethren. Though these Jews gave never expressed belief in Jesus. There are certain well known TV evangelist, one in Texas, who say that Jews do not need to be evangeluzed. His contention seems to be they do not need to know Jesus. Also some regard tbe Jews as already going through the holocaust. They gave suffered. God will save the
So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved? I mean do they need Jesus for salvation in this day. Had God given Israel special grace? Is it the rest of the world needs Jesus and Israel does not?

Bearmaster.

 2012/11/22 13:54
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

quote,
"So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved?"



Absolutlely Yes,

Jews need Jesus for salvation just like anybody else for there is no other name under heaven.

Furthermore, jews need Jesus for salvation more than anybody else for He is their Messiah and only Savior.

And here is the thing: God has given a promise that they will find Jesus. God has not given this promise to any other people. Although all people "MAY" find Jesus, the Jews "WILL" find Him.


_________________
Fifi

 2012/11/22 15:16Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
There are certain well known TV evangelist, one in Texas, who say that Jews do not need to be evangeluzed.



Mouthpieces of Satan. How is it that the Jews who rejected Christ were condemned for rejecting Him in the first century, yet now they're accepted for their rejection of Him in the 21st?

Only the devil would not want the Jews to find their Messiah.

Just look at the section that InTheLight posted. The Lord said that anyone who rejected the Prophet that was like Moses (Christ) He would require it (the full obedience to the Law) of him. The Law cannot be kept since 70 AD. There is no temple, and there is no high priest. If the natural branch does not accept the one who came as their eternal high priest, and as their perfect Passover lamb, the Lord will require of them something that is beyond their ability to keep (the Law).

There is salvation by no other name.

 2012/11/22 17:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If we are in Jesus Christ we will be concerned about this plan and share God's heart for all peoples (nations) especially the people of Israel because from them the messiah came and will come again to them.

I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future. From them certainly the Messiah came, but by them they crucified Him. The Jewish leaders, Herod, all knew who Christ was, from His birth to His adult life they sought ways to frame Him and kill Him.

Matthew 22:7 But when the King(God) heard thereof, He was wroth: and He sent forth His armies(using Rome), and destroyed those murderers(Jews), and burned up their city(Jerusalem).

Matthew 22:8 Then saith He(God) to his servants(preachers), The wedding is ready(Promise of the Holy Ghost), but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Matthew 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways(world), and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage(tell them about Jesus).

If you can receive it brother, and I say this with all kindness, Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek".

To insert the word "Special" shows partiality and is someone else's ideas, not God.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

To the Jew first only because the promises were made to them. But if they reject it, than it's passed unto the "whomsoever will".

God will have respect of persons if they are doing His will or if one is calling upon Him. There are several references of that Gen4:4, Ex2:25, Lev26:3-9 just to name a few.

To speak this way will be looked at as Anti-Semitic and I am aware of that, but I am not at all. I see the Jews as I would see a regular person on the street. I see the Church as thee Special people on the face of the earth that has in it all peoples that have received Christ as their Messiah, whether they be Jew or Gentile, Bond or Free, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Now, if they believe, THEN and only then are they true Jews. But outside of Christ, God sees no difference between a Jew or a Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 2012/11/22 17:54









 Re:

Quote:
So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved? I mean do they need Jesus for salvation in this day. Had God given Israel special grace? Is it the rest of the world needs Jesus and Israel does not?

God has been most gracious to the children of Israel.

You have asked a very good question and I must say that though no one will admit it, but if most believers believe that Israel is special before God, they will have a hard time admitting that any of them are lost.

When there is an affection for a person and they die without knowing the Lord, as much as we loved that person, it will be difficult to believe that they went to hell. Truth can be staring at us in the face but if the affection is greater for that person, we'd settle for the lie instead. If we were told that we were accepting the lie, we'd immediately reject and deny it, but the heart will reveal the truth through the mouth by saying, "well I believe they are saved". And this will come from honest believers who stand for the truth of Gods word daily.

This is the same for Israel. Believers have such a respect, such a reverence for these people that they literally do not see them as doing any wrong because they believe that these people are God's chosen people. There is an affection there. Even to the place for John H**** to admit that Jews do not need to be saved.

This is a deception and it will be revealed to the Church as such in the years ahead, as God reveals to His Church the conspiracy that the world has conspired against us. Right now we are slumbering and when we slumber we are not aware of what is going on around us, how can we, we are sleeping. But when we awaken we will shake ourselves of everything that has taken up lodging within us and cast it off like an old garment.

Right now we are getting bits and pieces, here a little, there a little of the divine precepts of God that have been lost by the neglect of our forefathers and He is showing us what He desires to do through His body in the last days of this current age.

Regarding a healthy discussion, when a man gets angry when someone rebuts him, that is a good indication right there to check out why your getting angry. Even those of us who want truth, truth is hardly embraced easily. When a truth comes forth, it's almost immediately cast down. But a person may pick it up again and consider what was said and if they think long enough on it a peace will come over them and they repent for believing how they used to believe. If our anger is immediate, it usually is pride rearing it's ugly head because truth is present.

 2012/11/22 22:15
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.



Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?

If you could include the dates with the citations as well please. I'm particularly interested in when the Mount of Olives was split in half, or all the idols names were cut off and forgotten.

After that I've got plenty of other Scriptures that I'd love to see the historical fulfillment of as well. Let's just use these three chapters for starters though.

 2012/11/23 7:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?

Is this a question of desire to know, or will I just be laying down foundations for amusements? Please be honest. I hate to waste time if the ears have been predetermined to be shut.

Foundations like these are not quick answers and like all studies it will require time, exhausted research on the part of the person who is teaching and on the part of the person who is seeking knowledge.

I've read your understandings of what will take place in the future and I highly doubt that your interested in knowing of any past fulfillments as I have also engaged in conversations before and your quite sure of what you believe and anything that falls short of that will not be tolerated and please understand, I understand that and respect that.

Thanks for the question but I am going to refrain as Admin Greg doesn't believe in a past fulfillment and I do not want to appear as someone pushing against him on his website or as one having an agenda, I like to continue on fellowshipping with everyone on a common ground and not go loopy into the controversial, for we both know that both our positions are controversial. I guess that is why some have blogs.

 2012/11/23 8:30
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by EverestoSama on 2012/11/23 4:52:14

Quote:
I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.



Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?

If you could include the dates with the citations as well please. I'm particularly interested in when the Mount of Olives was split in half, or all the idols names were cut off and forgotten.

After that I've got plenty of other Scriptures that I'd love to see the historical fulfillment of as well. Let's just use these three chapters for starters though.



Likewise, Bro. I also feel much the same concerning Rev.12&13 and 17&18. Time frames and locations being the crucial element in those passages must be strongly considered for good understanding of them to happen.

 2012/11/23 8:30Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
Foundations like these are not quick answers and like all studies it will require time, exhausted research on the part of the person who is teaching and on the part of the person who is seeking knowledge.



To make such bold statements such as:

Quote:
I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.



One might think that you would base your opinion off of a little historical fact in relation to the Scriptures, and not have to study something out if you can make such confident assertions towards others "in Christ", and that you might just have a little knowledge in relation to the question off hand. Unless of course you're saying that you've already chosen to believe something without first checking your facts, and you either ignore or spiritualize away everything that Pretterism will not give a coherent answer for.

My question was simple. If you've been convinced by Scripture that this is not going to be fulfilled in the future, than I'd assume you'd at least have an inkling of when events from these few chapters were fulfilled.

Then again, I think I remember you saying in another thread that you had no problem with prophets of the Old Testament not being 100% accurate with their prophecies.

And this is not an issue of there being only one fulfillment either. I have no problem with something being fulfilled in the past and being recapitulated in it's ultimate fulfillment in the future (which is the Hebrew understanding of prophecy anyway). This is the case with the book of Revelation. The whole book is a picture of Old Testament prophecy being replayed in it's completeness. However, there have been some instances with, as of yet, no fulfillment historically.

(I also don't think Greg has a problem with "past fulfillment" as he has sermons on SI about Midrash; http://media.sermonindex.net/12/SID12037.mp3
I would guess he just has a problem with past fulfillment being taught as the only fulfillment, and that everything is already done and fulfilled).

Either the prophets missed, or the fulfillment is yet to happen in it's fullness. I choose the latter.

 2012/11/23 9:29Profile





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