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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God hates and loves the sinner.

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therick2018
Member



Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65


 Re:

Jimp, I hope you don't think I want folks to go to hell. I certainly don't, I feel the burden of the necessity to take the Gospel to the world. I am grieved over my own family and community of how so few love Christ and so many are caught up in vanity and filth. But I live in the reality that I was a brand plucked from the fire by God's grace. That Christ died for me while I was yet His enemy. I am what I am by the grace of God. Amazing grace! Love so Divine and free! I've been saved from the wrath of God through His only begotten Son. I'm just trying to make the point that those who do not believe are still in danger. God doesn't play with sin and to those who persist in it He has drawn His bow and Christ will tread the winepress of His wrath. It is biblically false to say the the sinner is not under God's wrath.

You are right that christians don't live under God's wrath but under grace. And for us Christian who have been redeemed and are what we are by grace alone we must burn with compassion for our lost and dying race. We must take the Gospel to them and speak of God's redeeming love in Christ. But we must take the whole sword of His word and not just half of it. It has two edges. The Gospel has both warnings and promises. For those who are proud and self righteous we must warn them to flee the wrath to come! We must with truth and tears persuade them knowing the terror of the Lord. We must be constrained by the love of Christ. We can't simply tell sinners that God only loves them and has a great plan for their life. This is but to deceive them and leave them comfortable in sin. We must tell them He has wrath toward the wicked and yet in great grace has provided one way of salvation in Christ. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else. True church folk know that everyone outside of Christ is headed for hell, because they have been saved from that very plight, but this won't make them smug and indifferent, it will humble and compel them to go preach Christ that others might be saved too and God be glorified.


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Rick

 2012/12/10 12:49Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

For whatever reason this thread reminds me of a sermon that Bill Wilson gave a while back. He said he was at a conference the person before him spoke about how God loves people equally. His message was that God doesn't love people equally because those who are really down and out and at the end or their rope need more love from God then the person who has a house, a job, family and life seemingly going great for them. It would be a great find if I could find audio to that. I happened to see Bill at Without Walls church in Tampa some 15 years ago. I wondered why he would preach there given the nature of who the pastors were but I figured that Bill doesn't turn any invitation down if he can preach the Gospel and speak from his heart about Metro Ministries.


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John

 2012/12/10 17:05Profile









 Re:

Deadn said:

Quote:
His message was that God doesn't love people equally because those who are really down and out and at the end or their rope need more love from God then the person who has a house, a job, family and life seemingly going great for them.

There is true in this. There are those that He certainly does love in a general sense, and then there are the ones that are greatly beloved. The ones that are down and out great mercy and grace are extended.

Matthew 9:13 ......... for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

So yes, MORE attention is needed for those that are sick or in need than the person who is well off and can look after themselves.

 2012/12/10 20:42









 Re:

Rick said:

Quote:
That which makes a man righteous is Christ and Him crucified, His blood and righteousness. Not Faith. It is not faith that makes righteous, but the object of faith. Faith is the eye which cannot look at itself.

hmm...a cryptic response.

I guess the answer I was looking for was,

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith.......

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Quote:
If all of the sins of mankind have been atoned for then how can God send any individual in this group to hell? How would that be just?

Believe me Rick, I understand what your asking. This to me is a great a mystery.

Now, as I was reading your post I had another thought that came to me and that was that group in the wilderness that wanted to break off from Moses and do their own thing. The New Testament called it the Error of Korah.

This group was in Egypt, they were in the houses that had the blood put on the lintels of the door that protected them from the angel of death. Yet when they rebelled and would not repent, the ground swallowed the whole lot in one fell swoop. They were under the blood, under the cloud, under the fire, under the mountain, now they are under the ground.

 2012/12/10 21:06
therick2018
Member



Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65


 Re:

Dear Approved,


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be cryptic about it. The way I understand it is that christians are saved by grace through faith alone. Faith in Christ alone. It's not faith itself that saves or justifies us. We don't have faith in our faith, but rather in Christ the object of our faith. However faith is the sole means, avenue or channel by which we apprehend or behold Christ.
It is not in works at all but by faith alone which is a beholding or being totally cast upon Christ. Christ and Him crucified is the ground of our justification; faith is the sole avenue or instrument by which we receive the righteousness of Christ. Faith has to have an object. No one is covered by the blood of Christ unless they have faith in Him.


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Act_20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Col_1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,


about the error of Korah,
Many of them I believe went through the outward observance of the passover; but they didn't have true spiritual faith in the coming Messiah. The passover lamb was only type not the real substance. Because they didn't have true faith they weren't covered by the blood of the True Lamb. They had a form of godliness but not the power.




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Rick

 2012/12/10 22:09Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, we all agree that God loves the sinner.show me a new covenant example of God hating someone.jimp

 2012/12/11 9:07Profile
therick2018
Member



Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65


 Re:

Jimp,

Surely God did not change between the OT and the NT. I the Lord do not change. Are you saying that God did hate in the OT and does not in the NT? If so then according to your thinking did God not love in the OT? And that certainly is not true. Exodus 34:6-7 Has always been true, the only place to find refuge from our sin and God's wrath is Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation; outside of Christ, nothing but condemnation.

Jimp, isnt all of God's word "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"? God has not changed in His character in the OT to something different in the NT, so Old testament verses should be of value to you.

Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Luk_12:49 "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Mat_3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."


As a preacher has said, if you don't think God hates sinners then look at calvalry. The one covenant keeper, the only righteous man who ever lived, the Spotless Son of God, yet when sin was imputed to Him, God the Father smote Him and crushed Him. He turned His face away from His Son and made Him to bear the sting of death and the curse of the law. He became a curse. Christ was cut off from the Father and bore His wrath.

If God did that to His own Son what then will he do with those who remain sin?


_________________
Rick

 2012/12/11 12:45Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:


There is no change in God's Plan, set forth even before the foundation, but there is new revelation in that the Spirit of Christ after His resurrection and asention, the mystery hid from all generations is now revealed to Paul and given to usward, "you-ward", "Christ in you the hope of glory".

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Corinthians 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

That being the mystery;

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I praise God, I am dead in trespasses and sin, but because of Christ in me, I am alive unto God. If I sin I am readily forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness because of Christ and Him alone, "If we confess", "God is faithful and Just to forgive", because of His Son that is birthed in us, to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

The Mystery revealed;

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The mystery now being accomplished by the Son of God in us; "Christ in you the hope of glory".

In Him that is alive an in us, who is True:

Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2012/12/11 13:22Profile
wombat1
Member



Joined: 2010/12/1
Posts: 65
Melbourne

 Re: The Whole message

I am so pleased to hear the full message. The reason is more souls will be saved. Paul was a great believer in preaching both Love and Hell.

The great revivalists preached both, it is almost like we are serving up a big mac version of the gospel.

If a soul is saved because he is made uncomfortable about his sin then shouldnt we become uncomfortable at times, and hopefully by the leading of hte Holy Spirit to speak directly to the consequences of sin and the only remedy.

TheRick2018 Thanks regards Oskar.


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Oskar Abley

 2012/12/15 9:05Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

dear the rick, in the old COVENANT that God cut with abraham law and sacrifice to cover sin was in affect by the shedding of animals blood and it was for jews only.we live under a new and BETTER covenant based on Jesus and Him crucified with better promises based on grace and His faith tht takes away sin. the old lived under the wrath of the Father andin the new;the wrath was poured out on Jesus.i am hid with Christ in God and have full security based on the what Jesus has done for me even tho i am as unworthy as a worm.jimp

 2012/12/15 10:55Profile





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