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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Jezebel Profile by Debi Pearl

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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: amrkelly

Hi brother amrkelly,

RE: AK wrote ///No well he could hardly do that even if he intended it. That is the point. It is not the intentions of the man which matter it is its effect///

The intensions do matter otherwise we could blame the scripture whenever people wrongly interput them.

RE: AK wrote ///Search the internet and read something of the reality of what happens when men believe their wives are to obey their commands.///

Created to be his help meet was not written for men. Pearl has taught on how men are to treat there wives with the same Love that Christ had for the church,And to Love there own Wife as there own body.

and it works Brother the thing is it works and it is biblical, What Pearl writes on this subject is not for one spouse to shove down anothers throat just as scripture is not to be shoved down anothers throat, it is to be recieved personaly by willingness and when it is and acted on as such it has wounderful results.

RE: AK wrote ///When they confuse submission with total obedience. Read 1 Peter and see that it is not a command to women but to all men (male and female) and wives and not all women are encouraged (not commanded) to submit to their husbands (not to call them Lord as though he were Christ Himself.///

Pearl did not use the word command he used the word exhorted
"To urge by strong, often stirring argument, admonition, advice, or appeal" http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exhorted

He is clearly using 1 Peter ch 2 v 13 thru ch 3 v 6 which as I am reading over it does not appear to be loosy sugestive Launguage, actually as I am reading the colossians verse and the ephesians verse along with 1 Peter I would like to know where you are finding the submission verses as an ecouragement rather than a command??

AK wrote ///To say that this teaching is an opportunity for abuse is to mean just that. If anyone needs to shed tears then let them shed tears according to their own conscience. But that has nothing to do with the presentation of women which amounts to an opportunity for the flesh and for unclean spirits to oppress women and drive men to abuse their wives.///

brother once again that is ridiculous, How can the same not be said about the scriptures?? men have and do twist the scriptures to justify wrong doing, We do not blame the Author for how a few evil men inturpet Them. just because one could get the wrong impression from what is written in no way discredits the true and obvious intent




 2012/10/10 0:48Profile









 Re:

Hi Proudpapa,

Do you see anything wrong in what Debi wrote in her article on the Jezebel spirit? I pointed out quite a few things where she went way overboard...just curious about your thoughts on those.

 2012/10/10 0:52









 Re: The Jezebel Profile by Debi Pearl

Quote:
RE: AK wrote ///No well he could hardly do that even if he intended it. That is the point. It is not the intentions of the man which matter it is its effect///

The intensions do matter otherwise we could blame the scripture whenever people wrongly interput them. Proudpapa.



If you were a woman whose husband was in any event abusive and domineering you might think a little differently about any teaching which said “you must answer to God for how you respond to your husband, even when he causes you to suffer. Just as we are to obey government in every ordinance, and servants are to obey their masters, even the ones who are abusive and surly, ‘likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands”.

These words are Mr Pearls to other men’s wives. The direction of them is “in the home” because it has to do with how to behave when a woman is abused by her husband. I have heard of many men who are abusive in secret “in the home” but are as gentlemanly as one can imagine in the street and the church.

The reference to employers in 1 Peter 2:18 and what ones attitude should be to an employer, is not “in the home” but in the “work place”. That is to say in the Scripture it is in the “masters” house or whilst going about his business. The admonition is to serve your employer well regardless of whether he is a smiley person or a sultry person. In short no matter how his countenance and demeanour are serve him well. It is a witness not a ticket to empower our employers to make slaves of us. Even though at the time of the letter of Peter many people were indeed slaves. If a slave then one may well suffer the poor treatment of a master and in this regard suffering for no wrong doing is better than suffering for doing wrong because this too is a witness of Christ who suffered for us.

The reference to obeying government in every ordinance (the law of the land) is not in the home it is in the land. (1 Peter 2:13-14). It is for the Lord’s sake whose servant or minister of righteousness (governors appointees)) are sent to punish evil doers as well as to bless those who obey the law of the land. This too is a witness.

The reference to “wives” in 1 Peter 3:1 to be, subject to their husband BECAUSE if “they” (other women’s’ husbands), who “obey not the word or else BELIEVE NOT, may be “won” SAVED by THE CONVERSION OF THEIR WIVES; is also a witness. Then just in case these poor “stupid” saints didn’t GET IT, Peter explains something about appearance, dress and attitude. ALL of this is in the context of a public witness and has nothing to do with the privacy of the home except in the context of having other UNBLEIVEING MENS wives over for tea. This is consistent with the direction and purpose of this passage. One thing is for sure the passage has very little to do with anything which is hidden in the home (husbands, wives and children's private lives) but rather that which is visible in the public domain of the street, land, workplace , etc. If it is to do with the home it is in the context of unbelieving husbands being won by their wives having become saved through believing wives’ good example. What none of these things have to do with in an emphatic injunction for wives to be somehow conformed to a pattern of conduct which includes being incapable of resisting their husbands, if they mistreat them in the home.

For Mr Pearl to connect the three elements in the way he has, is false and misleading. If all Christian men did in fact treat their wives with respect in the home as well as in the street things would be just fine. But they do not. So any teaching which asserts that a woman (wife) should be submissive to the point of accepting abuse and misery at the hands of their Christian husbands is a parody of truth as presented in this passage. To connect employment, the law of the Land and private family life in this way is nothing short of male ego gone wrong.

The brethren to whom this letter was written are the Jewish pilgrims (1 Peter 2:11-12) who have by reason of persecution been scattered to gentile countries. The first admonitions have to do with ALL the brethren and the purpose of the admonition is to teach them the importance of their conduct and manner in a foreign land for the sake of the Lord Himself and nothing directly to do with their wives or for that matter their husbands either. This can be easily understood because no mention of children is ever made. It all has to do with being witnesses in the land of the gentiles. Children on the other hand are at home or else are not a basis for having concern over behaviour. Children are children. And there is a clue brother. Just take the matter a little further and you have another teaching which says that children are to be “trained” as well by being systematically hit with a variety of instruments including a 15” piece of plumbing hose from as young as 6 months. If they defecate themselves they are to be hosed down a little, but not so quickly if they are being stubborn. You no doubt understand this. It too forms part of the stable of teaching you have posted.

Brother I will stop there. Women in the Lord are able to walk as good and faithful wives because they are joint heirs of grace with their husbands. Husbands’ can similarly be motivated to walk as faithful and reasonable husbands because they too are joint heirs of grace with their wives. Setting aside the curse of Genesis, which whilst it is still in the female through the body of sin, genetically implicit and emotionally evident, yet it need not be a thing to lay claim too as proof that a woman needs to be trained as one would train someone to carry out a task. Being a wife is firstly a matter between husbands and their wives. The reality of male and female, and husbands and wives, is significant in the church and in public; in the church because a woman ought not to teach in the church and in public because her conduct is being observed and may glorify Christ in other women lives if they too believe. If they do believe because of a wife, a husband may end up believing as well.

I don’t say this is perfect, but I do say that to call any woman, let alone your wife a Jezebel in most instances is hypocrisy and will lend itself to women abusing themselves and men abusing women and children.

How many saints truly comprehend what the Jezebelic spirit really is? I have seen it face to face firstly in my mother who was driven to beat me unconscious and to hate me with a truly malevolent spirit. I have seen it in my mother’s eyes and it was a cause of much fear and suffering. Yet I do not hate my mother. I have seen it in the lives of a few women who have made agreement with it without comprehension whilst still in unbelief and I have seen it laying waste to husbands and children many years after being saved. I have seen it in men who have despised their wives, even though they loved their wives bodies and it too has been judged and cost lives. Loss of life or its report came on the same day for men and the loss of life. Only the Lord can take the first born unto Him, but the last born child may be taken by the evil one if sufficient ground is given and the enemy finds a foot hold in a family or else presents his worker in the midst. I have also seen the first born being taken by the Lord because the husband would not repent of his wickedness despite many warnings and admonitions in love. The former is an outworking of Satan and the latter is God's mercy and righteous judgement for men and His own names sake.

Those who receive teachings from whatsoever source and yet have profound spiritual difficulties in their lives may end up beating their children to death, not just the hand of a father, but the hand of a mother also. It is foolish not to comprehend that this reality exists. To simply pass it off as a figment of the imagination or else to suggest that somehow Satan baits believers into acting out of personal bitterness and experiences is to fail to grasp that his primary intention is to devour. It is not necessary for Satan to bait us we are baited by our own fleshy natures if we walk in them. He devours and destroys that which he is legally permitted to destroy by God Himself according to his accusations against us in heaven. Grace to survive these things is not mystically acquired it is either comprehended or else it is not. If it is not comprehended and faith is equally deficient to resist him, he will devour and destroy if he is able to. He is wicked.

You appear to believe that everything is simply a matter of personal motive. Spiritual warfare is never a matter of personal motive. That was my sin for a season and I have stated it clearly. The calling of God in our lives is the basis of our lives now that we have believed. It is warfare not opinion or personal motive. Many parents find it difficult to trust God with their children and out of fear and a lack of faith they close their children in and smother their godly development. Some are able to comprehend that this is a reality before it happens and so instead they can at least trust in the reality of their calling to humble themselves to God on the one hand, but resist the devil on the other with regards to their children’s lives. God is not offended with this. He understands very well the nature of the world in which we live. Others more fully trusting God, trust not only for their own lives but their children’s and the lives of those they serve. It is all a matter for God. There is no one prescription or measure in this life.

Regardless of how many benefit from the teachings of Michael and Debbie Pearl there are those who have most assuredly not benefitted from them. This is because their underlying beliefs with regards to what constitutes the circumstances of the fall of man, as well as the nature of innocence before the fall both inform and make certain that what is set into motion in one place, is profoundly off course when it is received in another if the circumstances are present. The schism is by an almost imperceptible degree to the natural mind. In the spirit it is profound in its outworking. Brother, go and read their articles of faith. They ought to provoke a concern at very least.

Beside that they employ psychological and natural wisdom to achieve their methodologies. There is no need for anyone to make a ministry of teaching other men’s wives how to serve their husbands in order to give glory to God and Christ. It comes with natural affection and the grace of God, by faith. It cannot be a prescription. The same is true for men. Separating out Mrs Pearl for women and Mr Pearl for men is a construction of vanity, when Mr Pearl makes his own contribution as an appended directive. It also denies the very essence of the ministry of the Word in the local church which should be led by the Lord Himself in a true and faithful walk by men of God with the support of their wives. No one is perfect in understanding no one is entirely responsible but we are all accountable before the Lord. No one should call their wives Jezebel and no wife should be encouraged to think of herself in that spirit either.

 2012/10/10 7:57
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

To proudpapa

can you if you have time respond for me to these points from this article. i just would appreciate understanding your thoughts and if you agree with what is said. if you don't want to no worries, i understand.

FROM THE ARTICLE :A woman who criticizes her husband for watching too much TV no longer honors him. When a woman tries to control areas of their life together because she thinks she is right, she is usurping authority over him, and lording over him.

DO YOU AGREE: is this your understanding from scripture that a woman can never lovingly share or speak with her husband on matters of sin in his life? if a husband is in open sin, do you believe that a wife who lovingly speaks to him about that sin is usurping authority over him?

MY THOUGHT: wouldn't this verse apply to such a situation. after all we are all brothers and sister in Christ, even husbands and wives are in Christ. "Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."


FROM THE ARTICLE: Hurt feelings are a way to control. Silence and emotional retreat are ugly, destructive ways to control both your husband and your children. Anger, sickness, exhaustion, and even fear are all used to control those you care about. Some women control their husband by having an intense spiritual hunger. Jezebel comes in many disguises.

DO YOU AGREE: do you believe if a wife expresses to her husband that his attitude/behavior has caused her to have hurt feelings that she is attempting to control her husband? Sickness? Exhaustion? these are used as control really? i know a wife who has raised five small children and she is exhausted most of the time just trying to meet the needs of the family and because she expresses her needs to her husband this makes her controlling and having a Jezebel spirit?
having a hunger for the things of Jesus is attempting to control them? really??

MY THOUGHTS: i am really trying to understand the heart behind the writing of some of these things. they seem extreme to me and in themselves controlling? husbands are head of the house i have no issue with that but for me their is only one Lord in my life and that is Jesus Christ. i would never consider calling my husband Lord and he would be repelled by my doing so.


rdg


 2012/10/10 9:19Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

I wasn't going to comment on this but I have been reading a bit of the interaction with RDG and would like to comment on this "Jezebel spirit"

I once read a book called "UnMasking the Jezebel Spirit" it was a decent read but what happened afterwards was far worse than what the book ever described. After reading the book everyone I met had this spirit (as in anyone that made me mad or disagreed with me) I became a witch hunter.

Here is my issue with this "spirit" it causes too many people to try and see if their spouse has it (mostly men with a wife that nags them or something to that degree) to make up an excuse as to why they shouldn't have to lay their life down for their wife and love their wife as Christ loved the church. It's a way of taking away the guilt of being a bad husband rather than manning up and suffering for his wife.

If your wife is nagging you because she wants quality time away from the TV then by golly you give that to her, and just because she interupts your TV time because she wants attention doesn't mean she has an evil spirit causing this, it means she is a human that has certain needs that aren't being met.

Hurt feelings are hurt feelings and its not just women that use them to control or just have them in general. As a man I am "leader" only as long as I am following THE Leader, it's a real shame that we spend time looking for excuses as to why our spouses are unhappy when we could be the cause of that unhappiness.

It's true Jezebel was a terrible person, but when we talk about the Jezebel spirit we are generally talking about Godly Christian Women.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2012/10/10 9:49Profile
Coolwater
Member



Joined: 2012/3/14
Posts: 23


 Re:

Thanks for the read, i will give it some thought. Perhaps i'm a bit confused in this article. I always thought, that to have a Jezebel spirit, was to be manipulative and dominant. Women are not the only ones who for lack of knowledge and discernment struggle with a Jezebel spirit, men also. Jezebel took the lead, because Ahab was too weak. I read somewhere in the thread, that to be submissive to a husband was to be a Jezebel. I disagree, not to be a hypocrite merely uprooting what was always in my heart. You should submit to the Spirit of God, in you that bares witness that the husband you are married to, also walks in the spirit of God. In the Fear of the Lord, but i would never call him Lord, unless he wanted me too. Wives who are abused, physically, mentally and even spiritually should call the authorities, and have him arrested. Wifes were meant to be help meets, and not to be battered, neurologically speaking. I would advice her to seek counseling and to be like the women with the issue of blood, to press in until holding the helm of Jesus garment, in hopes of finding healing, and inner peace.

 2012/10/10 12:41Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

David Bersott in his book "The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down" (a must read for all whom call themselves evangelical) points out as a Lawer that most divorce filers are women. as does many statistics.

We are living in a society that promotes self and self pity, A society that promotes blaming everything on the other and taking no responsability for self, because of this mentality we have a culture that is breeding a 50% or more divorse rate with a church culture that is no different. Debi Pearls artical as is her book "created to be his help meet" is addressed to women, She is answering Women whom are having marital problems. If you are a Woman having marital problems get her book read the posted artical and do what they say and watch your marriage be restored. if by doing these things from a sincere heart your marriage is not improved well at least you have done all that you can do and you have a clear conscience before God.

this artical is addressed to the many women that ask the Pearls "What can I do to heal my marriage" Debi answers ///you cannot change 100% of the marriage, but you can change 50% of it, and that may improve your marriage by 200%.///

as a spouse this is all we can do is change ourself not our spouse even though often a change in our self can result in leading our spouse to repentance and thus heal our marriage 200% as the artical says

Debi than goes on to address who this artical is written for women for one she clearly points out from the beginning and than she goes on to say as a response to several letters that they have recieved ///Our readers are a unique group. They are spiritually minded, church going, Bible believing, mostly homeschooling, and very family centered in perspective.///

Debi than gives the root of many of the marriage problems conserning the womans side. She calls it the Jezebel spirit perhaps the laungage would have been more appropriate had she called it characteristics simmilar to that of Jezebel. She than gives a brief dissection of some of the characteristics that she has observed from scripture and showes how many woman in our culture today have similar characteristics.

Debi than contrast the characteristics of women like Jezebel with Godly examples like Ruth and proverbs 31

Debi than goes on to point out ///An important part of man is a God-given, natural instinct to bring his wife pleasure./// from this she elaborates more fully this point
If a wife can understand this reality what a joy she can bring upoun herself and her husband.

Than Debi makes this statement that has caused some stir on this thread /// A woman who criticizes her husband for watching too much TV no longer honors him///

What is Debi doing is she indorseing a dead beat couch potato husband 'no in no way' undoubtly they recieve many letters from wives complaining about their husbands doing this, If the wife trys to correct this by talking to her husband, she will probably start an argument and solve nothing If she feels self pity that her husband is not meeting her needs or expectations of a perfect husband that root of bitterness will just lead to more contention in the marriage but in contrast If she Becomes a virtous woman an honorable wife there is a wounderful possability that this will change her husband, thats all as a spouse that we can do! and that is Debi's point

Debi goes on to say ///A depressed, discontented woman, who feels that her husband does not meet her needs, is dishonoring God.
Hurt feelings are a way to control. Silence and emotional retreat are ugly, destructive ways to control both your husband and your children. Anger, sickness, exhaustion, and even fear are all used to control those you care about. Some women control their husband by having an intense spiritual hunger. Jezebel comes in many disguises.///

this is a reality and we all have seen men whoms wives use these tactics to manupulate relationships and when she says Jezebel comes in many disguises and some will say where in scripture is this exact verse found, the point is these are characteristics more intune with jezebel and such like women and not the characteristics found in the examples of the Godly women of the Scripture.

Debi goes on and says ///Many nice homeschooling moms are the spiritual leaders in their homes. They play the masculine role spiritually/// I know of many example of this and it causes problems if no where else definately in the children.

I think Debi is doing a wounderful Job addressing these issues there are many testimoneys of marriages being restored from Debi's writtings on the subject.

If one does not trully believe the scripture, if say they are content using a paraphrased version and a modern contemporary Commentary it is doubtful that they will understand how biblical this artical is






 2012/10/10 23:24Profile





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