| Poster | Thread | DEADn
Member
Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL
| | the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | |
I have struggled with this area alot. I am very interested in psychology but in this field it tends to put away the notion of the spiritual realm and instead suggests that those who are 'tormented' suffer from mental issues. I would agree to an extent on this but I have also seen many Christians be quick to point out it is the DEVIL doing such thing.
I recently came across a comment from a blog I read dealing with demon possession and psychology and he said something that really gave me food for thought about the Christian community how much is really authentic in terms for spiritual warfare.
Here is a comment that struck me:
"OMG! My mom was totally into this for years. I like to call it, The Wacky World of Spiritual Warfare. Ive never met Frank Perretti, but I have met and had dinner with a number of them: Dr, Ed Murphy who wrote The Handbook for Spiritual Warfare, Neil Anderson, Mark Bubeck, Tom White, and others. My mom used to organize seminars and recruited me to help with box lunches and selling their books.
What a weird time that was! They used to sit around our living room, trying to upstage each other with shocking and dramatic stories of demon possession. You would not believe the stories I have heard.
The worst part is that they rejected psychology and actively discouraged therapy of any kind. Its not a mental problem. Its Satan! The whole thing was utter nonsense and from someone (reluctantly) on the inside, I can tell you they were nutters and charlatans who took complete advantage of vulnerable people."
***I changed one word in the above because it was not a cuss word but a crude word.***
Now, this sentence
"They used to sit around our living room, trying to upstage each other with shocking and dramatic stories of demon possession." really stuck out at me because it caused me to wonder when reading of tales of possession just how authentic authors are with them. I have the book 'The Twilight Labrynth' by George Otis Jr. I found it a fascinating read yet some situations in it really seem 'out there' and I wondered then how much more of that book is really genuine vs. sensationalistic.
The end of this post leads me to wonder if they say what they say because they see a game being played and those who buy into these guys books are the fools or is he not seeing the whole picture and being a denying of the things that are not seen. Does this make sense?
What are your opinions.
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John
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|  2012/9/5 12:58 | Profile | DEADn
Member
Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL
| | Re: the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | | On the heels of this, how does the gospel deal with those who do suffer from mental illness and how the gospel can change a heart?
ie, I have a cousin who has a mental illness. He is 37 but mentally is about 8 years old. He has gone to church and pretends to do pentecostal stuff because he mimics what he has seen but his greater influence is violence. How does the power of God influence such a body/mind?
John
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John
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| | 2012/9/5 13:00 | Profile |
| | Re: | | just wanted to let you know I have a mental illness. I hope to be delivered from it some day. demons are very much involved and its a spiritual battle. I'm not sure if i will ever be delivered from it because it might be a messenger of Satan type thing... and God has at least dealt with me that way using the demons. But maybe He allows it to be used that way because I have no way to get to a spiritual warfare counselor (that I trust, like Jim Logan on here). It sure is humbling and God uses it in that way to discipline me.
In response to your last question:
I believe when I am fully walking with God in complete obedience I will be free (and have been free at times). Every case is different with different understandings/histories/doctrines that God treats in different ways (seemingly).
I believe for all mentally ill people God will not allow the person to be free until they satisfy His will for righteousness in faith in some way, to some extent (if not fully satisfying His demands). For example, repentance with godly sorrow, being merciful to everyone, obeying His voice, being a light, etc.
anyway I still thank God He is teaching me His way even though at times it is so hard and frustrating to be disciplined through demons.
I have hope! I know God is amazing. I think He's awesome and I love Him. |
| | 2012/9/5 14:23 | | DEADn
Member
Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL
| | Re: | | Noah
I am having some trouble understanding your meaning in your post. When you walk in complete obedience in God then you will be completely free? Isn't that like saying if you follow all the Commandments of God then you will be completely free yet no person can possibly do such a thing. It sounds to me as if you are beating yourself over a misunderstanding of who God is.
Also, on the mentally ill, ie my cousin, he is not capable of living on his down and doing finances. He barely knows how to dress himself and cannot ties his shoes even though I tried to teach him on ocasion. How do you think God works in a heart with a person with such a mentality when he really doesn't understand what sin is? All he can do is mimick what he sees. ie. aunt used to let him watch WWE wrestling so he would get worked up over that violence. When in church he would do as he saw others doing and then say God touched him when in reality he was probably stimulated by something thinking it must be God doing something.
The family thinks that his mental issued stemmed from and medication he took when he was younger and it messed his mind up totally. I have wondered how the Gospel reaches people like him and people on the street even worse than he is to change their lives if they cannot even change their clothes or even know how to take a bath or shower.
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John
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| | 2012/9/5 14:47 | Profile | romanchog
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Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 338
| | Re: the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | | I believe that psychology is the devil's counterfeit. ALL issues are spiritual issues. Psychology (even in its "Christian" form) makes it think that some issues are simply a matter of the mind and that you yourself can solve them. (Note: If that were the case, why do so many psychologists have the same problems that they are supposedly helping others recover from). That does not mean that all mental issues are demonic; but they are all spiritual. If the issue is not demonic, they will be healed with the Holy Spirit, prayer, Bible reading (and following).
However, not all mental issues are demonic. From your description of your cousin, this does not sound like mental illness (as it is defined) but more as a mental disability as a result of something that physically happened to his brain, similar to someone with Down's Syndrome.
You ask how you can reach your cousin for Christ. First, you must understand that God is good and merciful. God is also in control of your cousin's life, and He permitted this to happen to your cousin. So if that is true, there is a way to reach your cousin with the gospel.
Second, you must pray and ask our merciful God to teach you how to reach your cousin.
Third, if he has the mind of an 8 year-old, he can understand sin. You don't have to call it sin. He can understand that there are things that are right and things that are wrong. Even a three year old can understand that. It is simple to present the gospel to a child.
1. Explain to them that God is Holy. What does this mean? It means that God is perfect and he cannot be in the presence of anything that is bad.
2. Ask him if he has ever done anything bad. Have you ever lied? Have you ever gotten mad? Have you ever... (anything that you have seem him do that is sinful)?
3. When he answers in the affirmative, tell him that because he has done these things he cannot be in the presence of God the Father who is Holy. This will probably make him sad.
4. Tell him then that God loves him and God wants to be with him, so God provided a way to clean him of his bad things so that he can be in the presence of God.
5. God sent His Son Jesus to suffer here, to die on the cross so that he can be cleansed of our bad things. Jesus paid for your cousin's punishment. (If your cousin has ever been punished, you can explain to him how this works, that instead of your cousin being punished for the bad thing he did, Jesus came and took that punishment). To prove to us that Jesus paid the punishment for all, God made Him come to life again.
6. Explain to him that just because Jesus came and suffered and took the punishment does not mean everyone is automatically cleaned of their bad things. A person has to repent (decide not to do bad things anymore) and decide to follow Jesus and obey everything that He said. Then this will clean you from your bad things so that we can be with the Holy God.
You may have to repeat this many times (on different occasions) before he gets it. [Edited to add this sentence]
I hope this helps you. Blessings.
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Natalie
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| | 2012/9/5 18:18 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Deadn:
I have struggled with legalism and perfectionism. so I just wanted to get that out there. So maybe I'm just not accepting God's forgiveness but still trying in some capacity to please Him with the law. But He deals with me according to how I believe. I believe the God offers a life with victory over sin in the Bible. If I don't have it, I would conclude I don't seek Him enough. That's the only way I can make sense of Scripture and especially when Jesus said "all things are possible with God".
Do I live in victory over sin in my life? no. But I make gains when I seek Him and make up my mind to put His will first in my life. This leads me to believe that this victory is possible, even if we would still have the capacity to fall into struggles--and supposedly it would be less and less.
About your cousin: I subscribe to a principle in an apocryphal book that says God raises up children through a guardian angel who die before the age of accountability--and apply this to other situations like mental retardation, etc.
Simply put by Romanchog:
"...you must understand that God is good and merciful.
Bless you |
| | 2012/9/5 21:06 | |
| | Re: the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | | Quote:
Also, on the mentally ill, ie my cousin, he is not capable of living on his down and doing finances. He barely knows how to dress himself and cannot ties his shoes even though I tried to teach him on ocasion. How do you think God works in a heart with a person with such a mentality when he really doesn't understand what sin is? DeaDn
Brother, my son Daniel has cerebral palsy with severe cognitive difficulties. He is 26 years of age and is said to have the mind of a 3 year old child. One day about ten years ago as I was talking to Daniel in a quiet moment about the Lord, his countenance changed, and for a few minuets I witnessed a full measure of understanding in his face. I re-affirmed to him that he belonged to God in heaven. Although Daniel can only speak a few simple words he looked me straight in the eyes and said yes, then nodded his head with some conviction. I found myself moved beyond words and realised that his disability of mind was no barrier to God. Since that first time, I have seen this same quietness and purpose of understanding come upon Daniel several times. My thought is that Daniel is able to comprehend in his heart that God is indeed God. I hear Daniel in the night laughing and expressing such happiness sometimes that I have seriously considered the possibility that he is playing with angels of God. One thing is certain Daniel belongs to God and he understands it. By it he is able to receive instruction regarding his general behaviour to such an extent that when he begins to get angry at something or other and I remind him that he must control himself, which I seal with a kiss; Daniel always settles down and actually thanks me for helping him. Your cousin cannot be beyond the unfathomable grace and mercies of the Lord.
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| | 2012/9/6 16:00 | | DEADn
Member
Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL
| | Re: | | I have to say that in the case of my cousin, it is the fault of my aunt and uncle as to why he is where he is, even now. I saw this because they didn't allow him to do much of anything constructive except to watch violence on tv. This proved its fruit and now he is not with his parents. Domestic violence is what happened.
I think that if he environment was changed and more positive he probably would respond much better but given the circumstances it just didn't happen.
Aside from that I still wonder about those, even on the streets, who cannot fend for themselves and even thinking rationally at all. It is one thing to have glimpses of a God experience for someone in this situation but how does a lifestyle change work? Psychology, has no way of discerning when something spiritual is taking place. They can only test what is going on in the brain and so forth and making that bridge between the spirit and the natural is a very tough call because of the nature if the atmosphere behind it.
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John
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| | 2012/9/6 16:13 | Profile |
| | Re: the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | | Quote:
Aside from that I still wonder about those, even on the streets, who cannot fend for themselves and even thinking rationally at all. It is one thing to have glimpses of a God experience for someone in this situation but how does a lifestyle change work? Psychology, has no way of discerning when something spiritual is taking place. They can only test what is going on in the brain and so forth and making that bridge between the spirit and the natural is a very tough call because of the nature if the atmosphere behind it. DeaDn.
I take your point about the environmental influences of your cousins personal life experiences and the vulnerability of his mind to process those influences and make sense of them.
Can I ask you John if you are familiar with Classical and Operant conditioning theories? I have seen the beginning of this post and your stated interest in Psychology. Although I have a definite objection to Psychology as a legitimate way of thinking about fallen humanity I did read Psychology and Theoretical Sociology at Leicester University in the 1980s. In your introductory post your question seems to revolve around a belief in the reality and validity of psychology for understanding humanity but schisms when you recognise or else remember that demonic warfare is real, even if it is exaggerated and even boasted in by some believers. Making the correlation between demonic activity and the psychological view of the nature of humanity is both possible and in fact necessary to anyone who has rationally seen that psychology does contain some real insights into the human condition. This is because psychology as a subject has real historical roots in the lives of individuals who themselves held to and believed in realities which were themselves informed by demonic activity. I have no intention of going into these things beyond saying that because it would attract the wrong kind of attention. But if you wish to look into it the above theories which are related by virtue of their historical development, you will realise that they demonstrate at least two realities of the relationship between the body and the mind. The first is Classical conditioning, which is principally to do with the physical body and physiological responses, and the second is Operant Conditioning which is principally to do with the mind and behavioural responses. From your own words you already recognise the potential relationship of demonic activity and the mind. You may also realise the difference between social environments, such as you have used to describe your cousins life experiences, and the atmosphere, which is the place of spiritual wickedness.
Beyond this keep in mind that the body of sin is the physical body and that the mind is either governed by the influences of the body or else is renewed by the working of the Holy Spirit. The fact that in Christ we have a new heart and a new life does nothing to remove the influence of the body of sin, with its power of sin and death, if we yet experience the power of it through yielding to its lusts and carnal desires. The fact that we have received a crucified life hidden in Christ which through baptism is expressed by walking in resurrection life still avails nothing if we do not also lay hold of it by faith and take account of the body of sin.
There is a book by Watchman Nee called the Latent power of the Soul which very nicely gives some really great insights into this subject. Though Nee doesnt go into the two theories and how they form the underlying foundation for much of what is called generalised psychology, he does give a good exposition of the historical back ground to psychology as well as other humanities subjects. Beyond that I pray that you will be blessed with understanding and that the Lord will illuminate your mind to recognise that psychology in the end cannot be a valid point of reference for understanding fallen humanity or a new creature in Christ.
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| | 2012/9/6 18:07 | | Bomar
Member
Joined: 2005/2/8
Posts: 112
| | Re: the reality of spiritual warfare v. psych issues | | I would recommend listening to this sermon:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=599
It is the testimony of Kenny Deason, who happens to be the lead pastor at my church. He was very much into tribal rituatls and nomadic living, and was possessed with demons. Violent convulsions, grand-mal(sp?) seizures, voices roaring in his head. Jesus delivered him from all that, and he's had his own business in the past, and now is a pastor w/ 8 kids.
There is such a thing as a pure mental handicap as well.
I do believe Jesus can heal both. |
| | 2012/9/6 18:34 | Profile |
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