| Not giving 10% of income going to hell?|
In one of the christian book which my Aunt read It is written like this,"Those were not giving their 10% in there income will surely goes to hell". Then I said her God will see heart not money or status we can also see in the bible one poor lady gives penny to the Lord and also in old testament we can see Cain and Abel offering. God rejected Cain sacrifices just because of his heart is not right.So God will see willingness in our heart. Then she was little confused. How come I support my answer?
| 2012/8/31 12:06|
| Re: Not giving 10% of income going to hell?|
Jesus told the rich young ruler to go sell everything he had, give it to the poor, and come and follow Him. Way more then 10%.
Jesus wants everything of you, not just 10%.
As for saying that you are going to hell if you do nto give 10%, that is just foolishness.
| 2012/8/31 13:04||Profile|
| Re: |
That book isn't Christian. Also read Galatians, the entire book. Compare that to the 10% required of the law. But Miccah is also correct. All of the money is the Lord's. We're only the caretakers of it, and He can use as much as He pleases of it.
| 2012/8/31 13:18||Profile|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: Not giving 10% of income going to hell?|
That book is not biblical. The others are correct, God wants all of us.
We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, if we watch our neighbors children do without milk when we have the means to help them by purchasing a couple gallons of milk and still pay our 10%, I think we could very well on the brink of hell. (Milk = shoes i.e., whatever that child or children might need.) (Luke 10.27; Romans 13.10; James 2.8)
What I have found is that if each one of us helped someone else each week, everyone would be better off but as it is there are many struggling to pay 10% and cant help anyone, let alone their neighbor and so most of the churches arent helping anyone either! Its a sad state of affairs in the churches in America today.
Personally, I have always believed in paying tithes but if the church is not helping the orphans and widows, I dont believe in attending there, let alone giving them anything of mine. I dont believe the pastors salary is more important than the lowliest among them. Zac Poonen says that he doesnt live better than the poorest in his church. Wow! Just think if America pastors lived that way!
And Zac also says that if you cant give cheerfully; dont bother giving because it wont help them or him!! Listen to some of his sermons on here on tithing; it will set your mother free!! Everyone must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, FOR GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER. (2 Cor 9:7) Giving cheerfully seems to be more important than giving, this is the new covenant!!!
But this is just my understanding of the Scriptures, you might understand it differently!
God bless you,
Zac Poonens sermons (42 Pages worth!!)
| 2012/8/31 14:30||Profile|
| Re: Not giving 10% of income going to hell?|
Hi, Lord bless you for your sincere question. I would encourage you to read 2 Corinthians 8 & 9 and share your findings with your Aunt. These two chapters really express the heart of God in giving in the New Covenant. There are at least two ways to err regarding tithing:
1. To think it is a law ONLY and has nothing to do with the heart. (Read Malachi)
2. It is also an error to neglect it and think that it is not taught in the New Testament.
Just as Jesus gave the "Spirit of the law" in His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount concerning morality, the New Testament truly does teach the "Spirit of the law" of tithing'. The difference is that the 10% factor is not given in the New Testament, because God wants us to give freely and willingly.
Jesus had the opportunity to offer fresh light on this subject of tithing when the Pharisees asked Him about it, but rather than saying "I came to abolish tithing" He said:
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Jesus didn't tell them not to tithe, in fact He reinstated that it SHOULD be done, but it should be done with the right spirit and be accompanied with the weightier issues at hand: Justice, Mercy & Faith.
Getting back to 2 Corinthians, the Apostle Paul (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) teaches about giving to the Lord in the context of money. In fact, "Giving" is called a grace by Paul, and he says in verse 7 that it should be a grace that we excel and abound in. I have heard people say "You don't have to give your money to God because we are under the New Covenant." This is both true but also not true. It's true because God does not want your money to begin with, especially if it's not frow a willing heart. But if someone truly does not have it in their heart to give of their money to further the work of God and advance His kingdom then I would really question where their heart is at.
Jesus told us that "where our treasure is there our heart will be also". The more we lay our treasures before the Lord the more will will be heavenly minded and about His business and work.
I believe God puts it in our hearts to give in order to spare us from the deceitfulness of riches the New testament warns us so much about.
Another key is also in 2 Corinthians 8:5
"And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and then to us by the will of God."
The church Paul is speaking about had the right order. First they gave themselves to God...they offered their lives as living sacrifices to God. All they had belonged to Him. Then the natural outflow of that was that they desired to further God's work by giving of their resources (financial) to the apostles to further the kingdom.
The principle outlined for giving in these 2 chapters can be seen in the example of Christ! Did anyone empty themself of riches more than He? Did anyone give more than He?
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
This verse isn't teaching that Christ gave up physical riches so we could inherit physical riches, but Paul is trying to set forth an ideal and principle in how we are to view giving.
He draws from the Old Testament when the children of Israel were collecting manna for food. A strange thing occurred then...the people who gorged themselves and took more than they needed actually ended up not having much at all, but the people who took only what they needed and left the rest on the ground for others ended up having excess to spare!
"15 As it is written, He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.
Paul goes on to say:
But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
This is the principle of giving in the New Testament. Let's aim to be like Boaz, a picture of Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, who let others glean from His riches. Ruth, a stranger to the covenant promises of God and the commonwealth of Israel was "brought near" to Boaz and allowed to glean what was leftover in his fields. Oh the mercy and grace of God overflowing to His people! May God put it into our hearts to give liberally, cheerfully, and willingly, following Christ our example! May we abound in this grace, and sow seeds bountifully into the field of the Kingom of God! He promises we will have no lack.
God bless you friend, hope this is helpful and encouraging.
| 2012/8/31 14:55||Profile|
| Re: |
2. It is also an error to neglect it and think that it is not taught in the New Testament.
Tithing is not something that is taught in the New Testament, it was not practiced by Jesus (He did not send them out to collect tithes, he sent them out with nothing but a message 'preach the Kingdom of God', in fact He commanded them to not take along a bag (that would have held money), it was not practiced (collecting tithes) by the Apostles and was not taught anywhere in the New Covenant.
Matthew 23:23 was written in the context of the Old Covenant and was required because the law was not yet fulfilled. Since the purpose of Jesus was to fulfill the law (praise His name that He did, fully) the law is no longer applicable to us, we are under a better covenant (Hebrews 8). We cannot pick and choose things from the law and selectively implement them as we see fit.
If you would be so kind can you please show me anywhere in the New Covenant where collecting tithes was taught?
| 2012/8/31 16:32||Profile|
| Re: |
"IS TITHING FOR CHRISTIANS?"
by Steve Gregg www.thenarrowpath.com
"It is commonly taught in churches that Christians should tithe (a word meaning the giving of a tenth of their income) to their local church. Christians are sometimes told that they owe the first ten percent of their income to the church where they attend, and that any giving to other needy persons or ministries falls into a separate category called offerings and should be given only after the first tenth has been given to the church. Preachers sometimes speak as if the Bible actually teaches such a thing, although the Bible nowhere mentions what we today call a local church, and the New Testament never applies any duty of tithing to Christians.
Tithing was commanded to the children of Israel for the support of the Levites (Num.18:21). The Levites, who were consecrated to full-time ministry and could not be profitably employed, would enjoy a standard of living that approximated or was slightly higher than the national average. The Levites, in turn, contributed a tenth of their income to the priests for their support (Num.18:26-28). The system was designed to free-up a large number of men to minister in things of the tabernacle/temple and to teach the law to the people. The fraction a tenth was not arbitrary, but corresponded to the needs of the number of full-time ministers requiring support.
Ever since God abolished the temple and the Levitical priesthood, there remains no obvious reason why the tithe should continue to define a Christians measure of giving to God. The church generally does not release one full-time minister for every ten families (though this ratio would not be excessive), so there is no biblical or logical reason why the same percentage of the Christians income should be devoted to the churchs coffers as was required of the Israelites in their support of the temple clergy. This is, no doubt, why neither Jesus nor the apostles ever so much as suggested this duty to the disciples. The tithe was for the support of the ritual system of Israel. These ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with in the coming of a better covenant.
Sometimes it is argued that tithing did not go out with the Law for the simple reason that it was practiced prior to the giving of the Law, and has, therefore, a validity of its own independent of the Law. The total evidence that tithing was practiced before the time of Moses consists of two passages in Genesis. In Genesis 14:20, Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of his recent conquest against Chedolaomer to the priest Melchisedek. Also, in Genesis 28:20-22, Jacob, awaking from his famous dream, vowed to give God a tenth of whatever prosperity God might give him in the time of his absence from Canaan. Do these passages teach or even hint that godly individuals regularly devoted ten percent of their wealth to God? Two isolated cases cannot establish such a pattern, since we never read of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Isaac, Judah or Joseph observing any such practice. Nor do we have record of Abraham or Jacob ever doing so on occasions other than these two recorded cases. We have no reason to believe that Abraham tithed regularly.Therefore, none can establish from Scripture that tithing was a recognized or mandated practice prior to the time of Moses. Furthermore, even if we did have a biblical basis for such a teaching, it does not follow that tithing continues as a duty into the New Covenant. Remember, circumcision and animal sacrifices (both commanded in the Law of Moses) were definitely regular practices prior to the giving of the Law, but this does not provide an argument for their continuance after the time of Christ.
Tithing is mentioned in the New Testament in three connections. Hebrews 7 simply recounts the story of Abraham and Melchisedek, without reference to any duty in this matter accruing to others. The Gospels record the saying of Christ that the scribes and Pharisees meticulously paid their tithes, while neglecting weightier maters of the law (Matt.23:23/Luke 11:42). Jesus states that they should have done both (i.e. paid tithes and observed the weightier matters), but this only states what was required of the Pharisees as men living under the Old Testament law, and tells us nothing of any ongoing duty for Christian disciples. Finally, we have the self-congratulating prayer of a Pharisee in a parable (Luke 18:12), who boasts of paying tithes of all that he possesses, but the parable does not go on to make this man a model for Christians to emulate.
It is not surprising that advocates of tithing do not make much use of these New Testament verses. The preaching usually centers upon the classic Old Testament rebuke of those who neglected to bring all of the tithes into the storehouse (Mal.3:10). The argument goes something like this:
The storehouse is where you go to get your food. Spiritually, you get your feeding from your local church. Therefore, God commands you to give ten percent of your income to the church of which you are a member. Anything over that amount that you give is not your tithe, but an offering.
One can easily speculate as to the motivation churches might have for teaching along this line. The only thing wrong with the above argument is that there is not one legitimate scriptural point contained in it. First, the storehouse was not where the Jews went to get their food. The storehouse refers to the storage rooms in the Jerusalem temple (Neh.10:38) where food was stored for the priests. They ate it there, and any surplus was given to the poor (Deut.26:12), but the idea was not that of a private pantry from which the tithing worshipper provided for his own sustenance. Further, it is not a given that every Christian gets his primary spiritual feeding from his local church. It is the very negligence of such feeding by the churches that has led to the proliferation on non-ecclesiastical ministries (sometimes called parachurch ) to make up for this deficiency. Finally, nothing in the passage is addressed to New Testament believers. The Christians standards for giving are defined in entirely different terms.
Those terms are found in the teaching of Christ, that one who would follow Christ must forsake all that he has (Luke 14:33/ cf. Matt.13:44-46). The ceremonial law served as a foreshadowing of the Christian revelation. The latter teaches that all of Gods people, having been bought with a price, are not their own, but are owned lock, stock and barrel by Jesus Christ (1 Cor.6:19-20). All of the believers time and all of his possessions belong to Goda fact foreshadowed in ceremonial law by the requirement of giving Him a representative token of each (one day of his week, and one tenth of his possessions).
In place of tithing the New Testament teaches stewardship (Luke 12:42; 16:1ff; 19:12-13/ Matt.25:14/ Titus 1:7). The Christian is a steward, or manager, of somebody elses (Gods) possessions. He is not in a partnership with God in which God holds 10 shares and he holds 90. In coming to Christ, the repentant sinner surrenders everything to God, and claims ownership of nothing (Acts 4:32). From the moment of his conversion, the believer becomes responsible to manage every asset (monetary or otherwise) in the interests of his Masters profit. Those seeking to reserve a share of their lives for themselves need not apply (Luke 9:23).
What, then, is the stewards responsibility? He must discharge his trust in exactly the manner that his Master would do if He were in His stewards shoes. What would God spend His money on? Well, the Scriptures give us all the guidance we need on this matter. Throughout Scripture, God expresses His concern for the plight of the helpless poor and the support of those who minister the Word of God. A timely gift to the poor is a gift to God Himself (Prov.19:17/Matt.25:37-40), and is the prescribed method of depositing treasures in heaven (Mark 10:21/Luke 12:33). Giving to the needy is merely an expression of the mandate to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Luke 10:27-37).
The support of the Kingdoms ministers is similarly an expression of our duty to love God, to seek first the Kingdom of God (Matt.6:33). These ministers include those who teach the Word of God (as the Levites were to doGal.6:6/1 Cor.9:11/1 Tim.5:17-18). This would include the pastor of ones church (if he teaches Gods Word) as well as others from whom one receives spiritual direction and nourishment. It also would include traveling ministers and missionaries (Luke 8:2-3/Phil.4:16-18/3 John 5-8). There is such a variety of ministrysome more- and some less-needy, and some more-, some less-worthy of supportthat a conscientious steward will do a bit of prayerful research before committing the Masters funds to a given appeal for assistance. In the end, the discharge of ones stewardship requires a great deal of prayer and leading of the Holy Spirit. It is nothing like such a simple matter as writing a check to the local assembly (which might be looking to replace the carpeting for the third time this decade) for a tenth of ones paycheck.
We must also acknowledge that God would provide for the needs of His servants and their families. Therefore, a certain amount of our income must be devoted to the feeding, housing and clothing of our families (1 Tim.5:8). Nor is there any forbidding of a few things for enjoyment alone (1 Tim.6:17). How many such things? That is between the steward and his Master, and is not for another to judge (Rom.14:4). However, we must be on our guard against our own pervasive tendency to judge our own actions (and expenditures) more favorably than the facts would suggest. In eternity, our rejoicing will be proportionate to our self-denial in this life and our generosity to the poor and to the work of God.
In the century following the apostolic age, the Christians understood that tithing had been replaced by full surrender to God. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus wrote, [The Old Testament saints] offered their tithes; but those who have received liberty set apart everything they have for the Lords use, cheerfully and freely giving them, not as small things in hope of greater, but like that poor widow, who put her whole livelihood into the treasury of God. The Didache (early second century) certainly has Scripture on its side when it counsels, Do not hesitate to give, and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that repays you. . .Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own.
| 2012/8/31 16:44||Profile|
| Re: |
hi, the tithe has nothing to do with the law. it was a tax put on 11 tribes to support the tribe of levi so that they might minister to the spiritual needs of the people.jimp
| 2012/8/31 16:47||Profile|
| Re: |
Thanks for your response. I'm not quite sure you made it all the way through my post, but that's fine if you didn't. Let me try and clarify as best I can.
What I am really getting at is that it seems there are two extremes on the subject of "tithing" "giving" "taking an offering in church" or whatever you would like to call it. It seems as though one extreme has abused it so badly by saying things such as were quoted in the original post by threatening people in order to get them to tithe, and that is not the heart of God at all. This has led to so much scandal in the church and has allowed even the enemies of God to blaspheme and has hurt many people in the process.
The other extreme that I have noticed is almost a silence on the subject of money, or tithing or giving...again whatever you would like to call it. It's almost that Christians tend to rejoice that they can't find tithing in the New Testament set forth as a commandment rather than truly seeking earnestly to find out how God would have them use their money. From what I have seen, these people don't seem to want any sort of instruction or principle from God about money.
So, in the strictest sense of the tithe being set forth as a commandment in the same way that it was under the Old Covenant I would definitely agree that is not the teaching of the New Testament, but I do think it is of note to hear what Christ had to say about it.
In the New Testament, I believe that the Spirit of the law is carried over as we see Paul on his missionary journies being blessed by the churches time and time again monetarily for his needs. Just as the contributions of the tithe was to care for the family and tribe of Levi under the Old Covenant and advance the work of the Lord in those days so now the new governing Spiritual law laid on our hearts to give willingly and cheerfully in the New Covenant is a special grace of God that He supplies to us to help us give to the work of the Lord.
The laborer is worthy of his wages and we are not to muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Paul made it clear that if he ministered spiritual things it was well within proper order to receive physical blessings (i.e. money) to be able to continue. In certain scenarios he chose not to take them and preferred to work to set forth an example, but at other times he did take them and makes it very clear in 2 Corinthians and Philippians that he was extremely blessed by them.
So, to sum up I apologize for any miscommunication or for not being clear. While we can't see the literal old testament law of 10% tithing being set forth in the New Testament as a commandment we do see the Spirit of what God was essentially always wanting to do and that is to take the increase and pass it on to further His kingdom and work. This is something I think should be proclaimed in truth and love to help rightly bring "giving" to a place of balance in the Church. Not to be abused and taking advantage of the sheep, but also not to be neglected either as we see God truly does have much to say on these things in the New Testament.
I believe the more we grasp the heart of God concerning giving & laying up treasures in heaven the lighter hold this world will have on us, we will be more protected from being pierced through by uncertain riches and we can truly take part in advancing the kingdom of God for the Name of Christ, as our resources transform into godly service.
I sincerely hope this helps brother. Blessings to you.
| 2012/8/31 17:18||Profile|
| Re: |
Thank for your kind reply :-)
If we look at the Book of Acts we can see that folks willingly brought forth their property and possessions in order to provide for their new found brothers and sisters who lacked, how awesome is this? Additionally, we see that they were handing out food to widows, again, wonderful indeed!
What I am really getting at is that it seems there are two extremes on the subject of "tithing" "giving" "taking an offering in church" or whatever you would like to call it.
My point is the word 'tithe' is a very specific word that means 'a tenth' and cannot be interchanged with 'taking an offering' or 'giving' because 'giving' is an act of the heart and 'tithing' is a law. While this might seem like semantics (and I see how some would see it that way) it is not.
I'm in agreement in what 1 Corinthians 9 says, when the word commandment is used, we can know that the Lord means business:
"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." ~1 Cor 9:14
We have a responsibility to take care of the folks that are living for the Lord, and that's a wonderful thing. Where I do not see a responsibility is when we create denominational systems that eat money that could be put to better use (the things that I mentioned from the Book of Acts).
Thanks for taking the time to converse brother, and thanks for the spirit in which you wrote, it's hard to convey a message with the right tone online but you did it wonderfully!
| 2012/8/31 20:31||Profile|