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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why the need for prophets?

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 Re:

I would go with Deadn that the gifting of prophet continues today. Perhaps that gifting even continues at the corpirate level as all have access to the New Testament and all can proclaim the word of God as this is what the prophet does. I might add that the giftings if the Holy Spirit are gender neutral. The promise of Joel 2 is that your sons and daughters will prophesy. This suggest more of a corporate approach to the prophetic gift.

But to suggest that certain people are designated prophet or even apostle is to breed a spiritual elitism. The same could be said for pastor, teacher, or perhaps even evangelist. It seems these gifts have more of a corpirate role.

I find myself looking at a modified cessionist position on some of these gifts. Or the people who claim to be apostles and prophets. The New Testament canon and the Holy Spirit gives us all access to God. So in some sense all of us are prophets in the corpirate sense.

Again I am not aware these gifts of apostle and prophet operating in the 1040 church.

Just my thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2012/8/12 19:20









 Re:

Bear, I personally don't see any problem with your stance. It doesn't make any difference whether anyone believes in these 5 callings or not and anyone that would force this on you has some pride issues to deal with.
Whatever GOD calls someone to do or say - just do it or say it. No one needs a 'title' to work for The LORD and do what He leads us to do. If it's from Him, just deliver it and go on your way. I've seen where some want to be acknowledged for their words and that's not the right attitude. If the words came from Him - they're not 'your' words anyway - so why would you want to be 'acknowledged'? If The LORD heals someone through you - it's still HIS doing.
If you give a word and it's rejected - just do the same as if it weren't rejected .... just move on to whatever else He's leading you to do. None of us should be seeking recognition. And all of us should be pointing solely to Him and to His Word, the scriptures and not seeking attention to ourselves in any way. So, there goes all need for titles and Eph 4:12-32 should be our heart's motive for all that we do together as His Body.


GOD Bless Bearmaster.

 2012/8/12 20:14
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But Hebrews 1:1 does say that God spoke to the forefathers through the prophets. This would be under the Old Covenant. Today we have God speaking to us by his Son Jesus. His words are found in the New Testament. Found in the four gospels and the writers such as the Apostles who wrote under the Holy Spirit.

We have the Holy pirit who brings his prophetic scriptures to life in our soul. So I ask with the revelation of the New Testament and the Holy Spirit. That is we have been given the prophetic word. Why do we need prophets?

If anything Jesus warns us in Mat. 24 that false prophets will come and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible. So how do we test false prophets? Is it not through the prophetic scripture itself?



Jesus was the pivot point between the old and new covenants. Now Jesus has ascended to the Father and all believers can hear the Holy Spirit of God speaking to them. But the context of this statement is not a statement on the passing away of prophets. It simply says that the way that God spoke to his people up to the time of Christ was through prophets, but now God's son, in the flesh, has come and spoken. The letter goes on to establish Christ as the priest of a better covenant.

God has designed this thing so that we are never independent, but are always interdependent. I cannot do this thing alone. I am part of the body of Christ. I am not a body unto myself. So I do not have the whole picture.

A case in point is the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given in 1 Cor.. One may be given a word of wisdom that God ordains to be spoken to me. I might ask the question, "Why do I need that ministry? Cannot I have the Holy Spirit speak to me directly? Am I not spiritual?" But I realize that I am not a man unto myself, spiritual though I may be. I am part of the body and absolutely need the ministry of the other parts of the body.

As to the foundation of the apostles and prophets, that must also be taken in context. I believe the context points to the fact that the church was foretold by the prophets and was established through the original apostles. That is, I believe, the foundation that is spoken of. Again, the fact that I used concrete in the foundation of my house does not mean that I cease to use concrete for the remainder of the construction.

What do you mean by a "modified cessationalist view"?




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Travis

 2012/8/13 7:50Profile









 Re: Twayneb

What I see in the New Testament is a passing away of men who specifically were designated Apostles and Prophets. One would be hard pressed to say that specifically that apostles such as Paul or prophets such as Agabuses are operating in the church today. I believe God raised up such to be the foundation of the church.

What I do see is that prophetic giftings are operating but more applicable in the corporate body of the saints. I believe JiG best summed it in her post. Acts 2 had the Holy Spirit falling on everybody in that upper room. They went out, men and women, declaring the wonders of God. Prophesying if you will. Were they prophets? For that hour they were. Did they continue to be prophets afterward. Probably not.

Phillip had 4 unmarried daughters who prophesied. Did they hold the office of prophet. I don't think so.

What I am trying to flesh out is the office or calling of prophet and gifting of prophet. Do we have men who are called to be Apostles and Prophets as Paul and Agabus today. No I don't think so. I do not belueve Apostles and Prophets operate as Paul and Agabus did. Not today. But I do believe the corporate gifting of prophet operates in the body today.

Just my thoughts.

Bearmaster.

.

 2012/8/13 8:39
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I see what you mean Bearmaster. Yours is not at all an uncommon view. I would propose a question or two, not necessarily because I am seeking an answer, but more as a question that I would encourage you to ponder about what you have said.

First, what scriptural justification do I have for my point of view? Is my position clear from scripture or is it based more on my own observations?

Second, Does scripture indicate that the gift of apostle and prophet have been set aside and at what point in time does scripture teach that these gifts were set aside? It does seem to me that Eph. 4 would demand that if the apostle and prophet are set aside, then the pastor, teacher, and evangelist must also be set aside as they all five are given until a certain event takes place. If this is the case then it seems to me we must assume that the church is already in the unity of the faith and has grown in stature to full maturity.

Third, if scripture does not indicate that these gifts have passed away, must we not assume they are valid and operable even if we do not see them in action or if we see a perversion of these gifts being the most predominant manifestation? After all, false prophets will arise in the last days.

You know where I stand on the issue. My goal is not to be argumentative. I simply want to throw those questions out for you to consider as you think about this issue.

As to the gift and the office, I am not totally sure I have full understanding. I do know that the gift is God gracing the life of an individual with the function of a prophet in the body of Christ. This function is a full time job if you will. A prophet cannot cease to be a prophet, although that person could turn away from God and no longer function, having lost fellowship with God. The gift of prophecy is a moving of the Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual. In other words, the person may conceivably be given a word of prophecy once in their life and never again. But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis.

I hope that this gives you something to consider. May God richly bless you brother Bearmaster.


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Travis

 2012/8/13 17:25Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Wayne wrote: " Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual."" "" But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis."""


It is pretty simple, if prophecy is given and does not come true, we all know what God does with false prophets. So the gift of prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, who is not a false prophet, will come true, for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, all else is of false prophets.

A "regular flowing prophet", must be very careful and can be influenced by spiritual forces and powers in high places. Check out what the prophets of God speak to. Only what God does or is intending to do.

A foretelling prophet is no longer needed. "prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet. We all know that the Word of God is complete and cannot be added to, but an inspired speaker prophet can and does give prophecy correct understanding of the scriptures by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Prophets be aware, lest you come under condemnation from God. If it does not come true, you are no prophet. I will not chance it unless completely proofed by the Holy Spirit of what I am speaking to, especially on an ongoing bases. Is it me or God?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/8/13 18:03Profile









 Re:

Here's an accurate view of New Testament prophecy (at least one aspect of it):

http://preachingjesus.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/nt-prophecy-differes-from-ot-prophecy-john-piper/

The article is written by John Piper.



 2012/8/13 18:43
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:


Among corinthian believers of apostolic age there were local prophets, not just gifts of prophecy. Corinthians 14:29, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said."

There is absolutly no evidence anywhere in the NT that clearly supports the cessetional theology of supernatural gifts or apostolic & prophetic ministry.

Didache one of the easlist christian manuscripts beside the NT writtings, states it clearly that there were prophets in the local churches.

The book Shepherd of Hermas who was written about 2nd century from a christian named Hermas; who was the brother of the Bishop of Rome. This is an axemple of prophetic ministry.

Throughout history of the church of God there have been men of God with an authentic prophetic ministry. Just because today there is so much spurious and counterfeit gifts among the charismatic movements does not mean the authentic does not exist.

I believe that during the great persecution of the last days, God will pour out the Spirit of prophecy on many believers, who will be overcomers.


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Redi

 2012/8/13 19:24Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Why the need for prophets?

We need the prophetic ministry today because we need the testimony of Jesus.


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Jimmy H

 2012/8/13 19:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

"That which is perfect" and "that which is in part" are both singular. There is a one to one correspondence between them. When one perfect thing comes then one thing in part is done away.

And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

Zechariah 13:3-4

From the above passage, we see that the Bible anticipated a time in which there would be no true prophets, and anyone who claimed to be a prophet would be looked upon as a false prophet.

False Prophets

There are many warnings in the Bible about false prophets.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:1

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:15

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:11

For false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22

Since there are no true prophets today, anyone who claims to be a prophet is a false prophet.

Sources of False Prophecy

If those who claim to prophesy today are not true prophets and what they speak is not from God, then what is the source of their message? In the Bible, we find two sources for the messages of false prophets.

1) Evil Spirits

And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

2 Chronicles 18:21

The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

Jeremiah 2:8

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 16:13-14

Evil spirits try to deceive people into thinking that they are receiving a message from God, when in fact the evil spirits themselves are the source of the message.

2) A Person’s own heart

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:16

How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

Jeremiah 23:26

Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jeremiah 14:14

Another source of false prophecy is a person’s own heart. I think that there are two primary ways in which this happens.

1) Intentionally. Sometimes people just plain make it up as they go along. Maybe they are trying to impress others with how spiritual they are. There is a real temptation to do this in charismatic circles, because those who "prophesy" are often held in the highest esteem.

2) Unintentionally. Another way that this is done is that a person misinterprets their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.

Summary

1) A prophet was someone who spoke for God. Their words were not their own, but the very words of God.

2) A prophet in the Old Testament was the same as a prophet in the New Testament. They both spoke for God and predicted the future.

3) A prophet is one who prophesies, and one who prophesies is a prophet. Those who went around prophesying all the time were prophets.

4) The Bible gives us two tests to detect false prophets. First, a prophet must be 100% accurate. They must never miss. Those who "make mistakes" are false prophets. Secondly, a prophet’s message must be biblical. It must lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible - not into following a false God or into ERROR. Those who give a prophecy containing false doctrine are false prophets.

5) God is angry with those who claim to be speaking for Him that he did not send. Anyone who "presumptuously" claims to speak for God will be dealt with most severely by Him if they do not repent.

6) Prophecy was in part. That is - it was only a partial revelation of God’s truth. When God’s complete revelation in scripture came, there was no more need for that which was in part, and prophecy passed away.

7) The Bible contains many warnings to beware of false prophets. The Bible anticipated a time in which there would no longer be any prophets.

8) There are two sources of false prophecy: A) Evil spirits - who try to deceive people with supposed messages from God; and B) A person’s own heart - either by making up the message or by mistaking their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.

What will you believe? Will you believe what the Bible says about prophets and prophecy? By James Frye.

IN Christ by whom God speaks to His rebirthed sons': Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (((((Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,))))) whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Who is now been made our "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, faith, life and redemption:" Phillip

-------------------------------------------------
What religions depend on prophets? Islam and Mormon

Brigham Young and Mohammad who both had many wifes youngest being 6 and 12. that should be enough

Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/8/14 1:24Profile





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