| Poster | Thread | DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL
| | Re: | | Quote:
by learjet on 2012/7/30 11:58:16
Quote:
As I said in my previous post, tell me who is a modern day prophet and then we can agree that the Prophets may still be here today. Right now there are a number of preachers who profess to be Prophet but they are not.
It is one thing to say the Bible is true with what you mentioned but let's see it in the flesh so the church can say Amen. At this moment in time I don't believe we have Prophets in the church because I have not been exposed to any Prophets. Only those who masquerade themselves as Prophets.
Hi John,
What you 'see in the flesh' and have 'been exposed to' does not make the Word null and void. What you are asking for is the equivalent to the Pharisees asking Jesus for 'a sign' in order to prove His authority (i.e. I'll believe it if you show me). Because there are 50, 200, 10,000 frauds proves nothing, if anything it proves that there is a prophetic ministry because no one creates a counterfeit of something that doesn't exist.
I've never seen a person drop dead for lying to the Holy Spirit yet the Word said it happened. If I've never seen this happen, does it render the Word untrue? Or is the Word true no matter what I believe?
There is a great danger in making proclamations and assumptions based on our experience rather than what the Word declares.
I hear what you are saying. I think for me that there are some areas in the bible in which I am just over with it as result of some discussions in Christian realms. Prophets are one of them because I have seem many come and go and of those they were either not prophets or they were actually Watchman. Maybe I jump to a conclusion too quickly on this issue but I don't really want to take it and say it is absolutely true either unless there can be proof of it. I suppose I am a doubting Thomas on this issue.
I just find that in Christianity it sparks alot of debate which leads nowhere and when it comes to whether Prophets exist it or it comes down to a matter of faith that God's Word is true in this area and I don't know if that is the right way to approach this topic. Does that make any sense?
John
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John
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|  2012/7/30 17:44 | Profile |
| | Re: You seek for prophets! | | Quote:
I am off the opinion that there are no prophets in our day. There may be watchmen but not prophets. If anyone disagrees with me then present me with people who are prophets and I will investigate. Even David Wilkerson was not a prophet. He was a Watchmen. Watchmen can be wrong but Prophets must not have error and I would think lead an unusual life. DeaDn
Brother this is indeed an interesting statement in more ways than one. The very last part which speaks and would lead an unusual life is remarkable. It is exactly how deluded men think when they seek to assert that they are prophets and are not, or else how real prophets act when they are deluded. Not that I am saying that you are deluded of course, quite the contrary. Imagine if after just having been saved you were to ask God Himself, Lord what is it that you have made me to be to the body? And God answers you are a prophet. What then? Should you go off to the wilderness or grow long hair. Look unkempt or else wash in a river? Believe it or not this is reality for those who believe they have been called by God to the prophetic ministry. Such a calling makes a prophet want to be separate in this way, yet if unusual were the mark of the prophetic, things would get very unusual indeed.
Consider someone who is seeking for clarity in a truly difficult situation and along comes an unkempt man, who looks as though he washes in the river, and looks at you straight and tells you everything about your situation. Suddenly you feel release from the situation. What will you do? Worship God? Or have the thought this man is a prophet. If this were to be true in your life would this prophet be a prophet because you have believed his words? Or would he be a deluded prophet who was real, but deluded. After all why would a true prophet need to live an unusual life?
The women at the well in Samaria said of Jesus I know that you are a prophet, because you have told me all the things I have done.
One of the central points which I am seeking to make in this post, is the distinction, what constitutes a real prophet and what constitutes a false one? In the natural mind a person can be received as a true prophet by simply appearing to be one. In spiritual reality a prophet can only be known by the words of their mouth. Again, to the natural mind, what if a man does reveal your heart and at the same time looks every bit the unusual prophet? Will you receive him and be twice as deceived. I have to say the answer to the natural mind would be a resounding YES though he in fact may not be a prophet at all. Now ask yourself did Jesus seem quiet ordinary in His appearance to men? The answer is a resounding yes. He had NO comeliness. Jesus didnt have an image of His own. He came among us and was of no consequence of appearance to men.
It may seem silly to write like this, but I can tell you brother that all around the world there are men who are claiming to be Gods prophets and do indeed look the very part. They even speak the part. Sometimes they are even accurate. Yet they leave in their trail destruction and misery. Some of these men are really called to the prophetic ministry and some of them are deceivers to the core, being both deceived and deceiving. It is not difficult to believe that someone who is not a prophet is a liar, but how will you deal with someone who is a believer and a prophet and is therefore able to deceive you. It is too simplistic to simply say that there are no more prophets, and it is equally too simplistic to say that a person who is abusive or else speaks falsely cant be a prophet.
In the Scriptures we are told specifically that a prophet is known by their fruit. Known what? Known to be a prophet? Or known to be a true or false prophet? One could paraphrase the same words and say, A prophet (tree) bears fruit. You will know whether he is true or false by the fruit. But he is still a prophet (tree).
Do you imagine that Zedekiah was not a prophet? He definitely was because it is written and there were about four hundred (prophets). Zedekiah was a prophet. Otherwise he would have simply been a deluded liar. But because he was a true prophet, that day he was proven false. Yes he spoke a lie, but he was proven false he wasnt proven to be a fake prophet. The tree bears good fruit or else it may bear bad fruit. But the tree is always a tree. A true prophet is always a prophet regardless as to how he may speak.
Hence why I have said beware the days which are coming. God Himself has a plan for His church. He is going to lead a remnant and enable them to make themselves ready for Christ. Satan knows this very well and has his own counterfeit. It will look so much like the real thing that many will not be able to judge rightly. Real prophets and the prophetic will feature in that counterfeit, even unto the false prophet of revelations. Gods faithful prophets will feature in what God Himself will do to make His people minded to dress in readiness.
When a person is first called to the prophetic ministry by having been given to the body for that purpose as a gift of prophet, they may serve Satan one moment and God the next. They may see God work through them one day, and the next realise that because of the flesh they have served Satan as well. They may curse a man and see him suffer loss and then bless a man and see him filled up. Unless we ask God Himself to show us in the spirit and through the Scriptures this reality, we will never know how to judge rightly in the days to come. In effect, how to reject a mans words but accept the man as one of Gods children. If he is indeed one of Gods children. Yet God will also raise up other prophets to snare the disobedient and faithless prophet, even as God is able to snare or entice a disobedient and faithless king.
Prophets who love the world, love the praises of men and are lovers of money will find in the end that they have served Satan and not God, even though they may have raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, etc. They will be serving Satan. Satan doesnt deceive those who are already deceived; he deceives those who know the truth. Satan has no real power of his own which he is willing to share with men he depends on men to act for him. He especially looks for men who are saved, yet rebellious or covetous and through vanity and visible pride he seeks to lead them against God Himself. Today we are come into this season when lawlessness is increased and increasing, where individuality is the fruit of collective and individual pride, where an unwillingness to repent of these things is leading to an exceptional day of wickedness. The enemy of God is comes as an angel of light, in such a condition, if we ourselves are in such a condition, how will we discern the day and flee from it? In the end Satan will give his power to a man, a prophet, proven false by his words. Able to cause men to worship the beast and his statue.
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| | 2012/7/30 18:14 | | learjet
Member
Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447
| | Re: | | Quote:
I hear what you are saying. I think for me that there are some areas in the bible in which I am just over with it as result of some discussions in Christian realms. Prophets are one of them because I have seem many come and go and of those they were either not prophets or they were actually Watchman. Maybe I jump to a conclusion too quickly on this issue but I don't really want to take it and say it is absolutely true either unless there can be proof of it. I suppose I am a doubting Thomas on this issue.
I hear you bro, no worries! :-)
I'm sick of all of the falseness myself and share your frustration as well, sometimes it's overwhelming for me and I get depressed about it. Perhaps we can encourage one another? Lord, knows that I need it more often then not.
God bless John! |
| | 2012/7/30 19:20 | Profile |
| | Where is this heading? | | I Imagine that the main cord in this idea of a "prophet"
of God, is whether the Word or Revelation would lead you to the Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth or not? eh?
This is a separate and holy issue, that men cannot play with. |
| | 2012/7/30 20:07 | |
| | Re: Where is this heading? | | Quote:
I Imagine that the main cord in this idea of a "prophet" of God, is whether the Word or Revelation would lead you to the Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth or not? eh?
This is a separate and holy issue, that men cannot play with. Brothertom
Tom it must be said that to know the Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth today you would have to first know Jesus the Son of Man, the Son of God, even the Risen Lord. Only then can you really know that this same man who is seated at the right hand of God, is Jesus of Nazareth. Nathaniel, asked, "can anything good come out of Nazareth?" After the Lord spoke to Him, Nathaniel was able to declare "you are the Son of God, the King of Israel!" Philip understood that he had found Jesus of Nazareth, "the son of Joseph". This was based on an understanding of the Law of Moses and the Prophets. For Philip, it was possible to understand that Jesus of Nazareth had been found, yet he still understood it in terms of Jesus the "son of Joseph". We haven't come to Christ by the Law and the Prophets, we have come to Christ by Christ who fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. Even though the Law and the Prophets speak of Him, today we have a better witness. For by the Son of man, by death and resurrection Christ has borne witness of Himself.
Of all the disciples only Peter received the revelation that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, before the Lord's death and resurrection. We today know this because we have received this same revelation of Christ, precisely because He is risen.
"Where is this going?"
So far as I can know it is to a challenge of that which it false in those who call themselves prophets. Not fake. But false. Fake is a lie and can be easily shown to be a lie. False is a "leading men astray" by the authority and power of God. So that it is also a warning. All power and authority belong to God. Even Satan has no authority of his own and his power comes from God's first choosing Him to serve Him. The corruption of his trade is the beginning of the corruption of the power and authority of God given. And the gift and calling of God are without repentance. God does not change His mind. Because God Himself is sovereign, that corruption becomes effectual for God's purposes in that those who are corrupt are ever willing to deceive men, even men of God, for their own purposes of the flesh. Just as Ahab as king and prophet by his own mouth commanded the truth from Micaiah, yet still fell into the trap. The random arrow which brought him unto death was not directed at him by a man, but by God Himself. In bleeding to death, he becomes a symbol of the shed blood of Christ, unto the scattering of the sheep, by the bringing down of the shepherd. And the sheep thereafter go each man unto his own home in peace. Even as we have found peace with God through the death of Christ, and the scattering of His sheep. Only then can we be brought into the household of God in peace. If this makes us tremble then so it should. We should tremble and cry out to God. We should put aside everything, even ourselves and seek God for the Knowledge of His ways. Only then will we have confidence to serve God even unto death.It is not the calling of God which concerns me, it is my own self which concerns me, and am jealous of the prophetic ministry.
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| | 2012/7/31 3:12 | | brothagary
Member
Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556
| | Re: | | this is a stuning thread i, always seem to be left stuned after reading your words andrew ,,,and brother tom
god bless you both ,and may god raise you both into the office of the prohet ,,if he has not allready amen
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| | 2012/7/31 4:30 | Profile |
| | A brother first: an Apostle or a prophet or an Evangelist or a Pastor second. | | One of the great deceptions today is the exaltation of the prophet. We cannot compare them to Isaiah, or Moses or Jeremiah or David, or Peter or Paul or John in this sense: These men were graced to exemplify and declare ETERNAL canon; The "IT IS WRITTEN" word of God.
The twelve apostles and 12 of other ages will be graced to sit around the throne itself, forever; right up front., and I suppose that most of them, or maybe all of them, were prophets. [ I have my pre-supposed list..] There will never be a prophet to write God's eternal word; Canon was sealed with the Revelation of Jesus Christ by John, around 100ad. [ Thank you Jesus for those who preserved that holy Word!]
We must get out of our minds the "big-shot" mentality of the prophet, or the Apostle: They are brothers first, and UNDER the body to lay their lives down for her, NOT over the body. We will leave that to the Nicolaitan ministry. The Prophet will be a brother first.
This really does not fit at all in the context of our concepts of The PROPHET, does it? A common man, with teenagers to raise, a cantankerous wife, bills to pay, and debt...just like you. A brother, and a failing, stumbling brother...but never-the-less, in the midst of commonality, a gift has been given, and maybe to the least of all.
We tend to shift to Elijah, or Moses...oooooh! but no, it's Larry! Your mailman sitting before you playing Yatzee, bringing up, now and then, the Word of the Lord; Just another brother.; but God's choice of common grace in an uncommon way.
I was a part of the prophetic movement 20 years ago, and moved to Kansas City to live among them. I have met all of the main ones there, at some time or another, but in particular Paul Cain and Bob Jones, who were the undisputed leaders.
They were all aloof. Paul Cain resorted to body guards after he spoke, and was whisked away from meetings by them. There was some very real ministry there, but there was mixture; Hidden Pride, power, and glory seeking. This was the idea of the prophet; 2nd in command, so to speak; ABOVE the body.
I CALL IT: HIGH-SPIRITUALITY/COLD LOVE.
It serves no purpose to name others, but the two above became international figures, albeit in infamy, and the rest, perhaps over a dozen, were eventually exposed as false, as brother Kelly defines false, leading astray in the name of the Lord; deceiving.[ For power, prestige, riches and honor, and a cover for carnal lusts, I suppose.]
Everyone involved either fell away, or became false...All of them. So, why? I think it was necessary that the false be exposed as it is, and it has been...but the true is yet to be established I think, in the End-Time-Bride Fellowship.
Another thing: What about the "Prophetess"? They exist biblically...and also....where is their room for the prophetic ministry in our churches today? There is none; the pulpit is taken, generally, and there is no body life; the Priest-Class has assured that.
This will change, and I believe in the dark night, that suffering night soon coming upon us, when we will need and love the prophet who carries the lamp, as we will the least of those who are illumined by it, and know that he is just one part of the body, not the head. "Can the Eye say to the Hand, I have No need of You?"
Just another member of the body, learning to love and serve, becoming a good son to his Father, and a good brother to his family....Prophet or door-man. Not an exalted figure...Jesus only gets that, and he honors us all equally, and we are commanded to do the same.
We are not to exalt the prophet, but we must not reject him too. If you meet a real one, you only get his reward by receiving him as one sent by Christ, and he will be clothed in the same frail and sinning flesh as you are...so don't expect too much. |
| | 2012/7/31 4:33 | |
| | Re: A brother first: an Apostle or a prophet or an Evangelist or a Pastor second. | | Quote:
I believe in the dark night, that suffering night soon coming upon us, when we will need and love the prophet who carries the lamp, as we will the least of those who are illumined by it, and know that he is just one part of the body, not the head. "Can the Eye say to the Hand, I have No need of You?"
Just another member of the body, learning to love and serve, becoming a good son to his Father, and a good brother to his family....Prophet or door-man. Not an exalted figure...Jesus only gets that, and he honors us all equally, and we are commanded to do the same.
We are not to exalt the prophet, but we must not reject him too. If you meet a real one, you only get his reward by receiving him as one sent by Christ, and he will be clothed in the same frail and sinning flesh as you are...so don't expect too much. Brothertom.
Amen Tom. This is my understanding also. Its not that I don't recognise when some one is a real prophet by God's calling, its just the way they live and the vanity and self interest which when it arrises, is always to the cost of the brethren.
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| | 2012/7/31 5:50 | |
| | Re: Called or elected? | | Quote:
god bless you both ,and may god raise you both into the office of the prohet ,,if he has not allready amen
Given that I really do believe in the giving of prophets by God to serve His people in this day as at every time, both in Israel and the Church, it would be hypocritical not to comment on your post brother Gary. I think that Tom made the point that there will never again be prophets precisely like Jeremiah or Moses, or most probably like any of the Old Testament prophets. In fact one would have to say that John the Baptist was the last of these prophets. Not only are their names written in the Scriptures, but no one who has ever lived since the end of the first century is going to be so named in the Scripture. The cannon as Tom said is closed. Nevertheless there is such a thing as a prophet. Needs must that this is understood or else those who are so-called, and who become carnal and disobedient will find that they harm the flock rather than serve the flock.
We live in the day in which we live. We do not live in the time of Jeremiah or the time of Paul, we live in the time of you and me! We don't even live in the time of yesterday or last week or thirty years ago. We live today and we will live tomorrow if it pleases God. It is both today and tomorrow which should concern the prophet. Today because he can serve today and must work out his salvation with fear and trembling. He must also in obedience to his calling in Christ Jesus know how to labour towards tomorrow. Most of that will be in speech and most of it will be unknown even to the prophet. I have never spoken the words "thus says the Lord". Moreover I truly never expect to have to do so.
New testament prophets are born of the spirit of God. They have Christ in them by the Spirit of God and they themselves are alive in Christ Jesus. As are all who believe. This is much more than Moses had and all the Old testament prophets had. Only one Old testament prophet has exceeded the limitations of their day, and this is Elijah, who to this present hour lives in his physical body, yet in heaven. As such New Testament prophets have the potential to "do as (Christ has done) and greater than Christ has done. Yet this same claim, is also true of every one who believes if they have sufficient faith to believe what the Lord said on this. There are peculiar realities concerning New Testament prophets yet these peculiarities are of no account. The thing which matters is whether the calling is a real one or an imagined one. And if it is real, how to work it our in fear and trembling. The boastful words of many who in all but saying it, declare themselves to be prophets by using a gift of prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, weave a cover which amounts to shouting from the roof top "I am a prophet." Many who are like this don't even have the courage to say what they imagine in the vanity of their hearts. Some no doubt are deluded, yet for all that they still have a gift of prophecy. Others, who have a certain knowledge of God's calling and understand that prophet is not the same as gift of prophecy may still not say "I am a prophet" because they are restrained by God himself from doing so at that hour. Others are wicked because they know that they are able to lead and influence the brethren, yet are not walking straight and would still have glory and honor amongst men. Their affairs are known about yet they themselves have no shame and still insist on honor amongst the brethren. As one brother put it in this post their financial misdeeds can't be challenged because they constrain others from speaking the truth, by calling it "negative". Or else they say submit to God's authority. Or else follow me! Or else they say rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The fear which is produced by such restraints gives ground to demonic oppression, which amounts to abusing the flock. And this is as nothing compared to what these ones do themselves out of their own flesh in abusing the flock as well.
On the other hand one who is in fact given as a prophet to the body and would not walk after their own imagination, but in the fear of God, can stumble and fall, and still act against themselves so as to judge themselves rightly and in that judgement marvel at God's hand to use them for good things, yet without any inclination or boasting in themselves. This is really a difficult thing to understand but Ahab stands as a real example of this in one real sense more than can be easily seen at first looking. David is a more simple and clear example because he had a heart after "God's own heart". So we easily understand how it could be that David is an example of a man who falls badly and yet whose throne still become the inheritance of Christ. Ahab on the other hand is said to have been the most perverse and wicked king of all. Understanding how Ahab can still symbolise God's sovereign purposes is much more difficult.
To be continued |
| | 2012/7/31 8:26 | |
| | Re: | | According to Hebrews 1 God spoke to the Old Covenant people through the prophets. Under the New Covenant God speaks to us through his Son. His words have been written down in the New Testament. All believers in Christ Jesus have access to the New Testament. We hear God speak to us through the New Testament by his Spirit.
All that being said. One wonders about the need for prophets. I am not advocating a ceasing of the sign gifts of the Spirit. But I am wondering if we truly need so many of those who call themselves prophets given the Spirit and the words of Jesus under the New Covenant.
Just wondering.......
Bearmaster. |
| | 2012/7/31 9:36 | |
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