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TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: Robert's Question..

Robert writes:

[i]What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answ[/i]

I am taking a look at these Churches in order as they appear in Revelation hopefully to find answers: [u][b]PART 1[/b][/u]

1) Ephesus:
This Church was recognized for their hard work, for their endurance, for their intolerance of false teachers, and for not giving up even in rough times.

But………….. There was a problem…

The love they had for God, for their brethren, for sinners was not what it used to be. See, they were correct to measure doctrine by a scriptural standard, but it seems they had abandoned their Love of the brethren in the process. This love is a total giving of oneself, and holding nothing back from God. And so they were told to turn back to where they once were in Christ. Simply, that is repentance a changing of your mind and as a consequence your direction is thus changed. Interesting they were not told to jump ship, rather to stay put and return to their first love Christ.

2) Smyrna:
This Church was recognized for the suffering they had been through, God was not ignorant of the poverty they found themselves in. In fact because of their relationship with Christ they were indeed RICH!! God knew of the slanderous talk others were saying about this Church.

This Church was told some would be cast into prison, and the persecution would continue. But the promise was to those who remained faithful, to the overcomer is to be given a crown of life!! Overcomer meaning those who overcome external pressure and temptation, as well as internal thoughts, motives, and attitudes. Interesting to note, they were not told to jump ship, but to remain faithful. Praise God!!

Next two Churches to follow….


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2005/2/17 18:44Profile
AsliEren
Member



Joined: 2005/2/3
Posts: 56
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hey robert,

Quote:
In others they were no longer able to tolerate the things going on; but I never knew of any to actually say they 'hated' the people in the church. I counted 4 times that you used that word. I still wonder what changed things for you?



I honestly hated them. I have to call it hate because it isn't anything less then that. If you walk around scared to love someone enough to edify them using God's fruits of the Spirit then you hate them. I never used the fruits of the Spirit (which by the way are specifically for the purpose of edifying believers and non-believers alike). It's sad but true that I believed I had the fruits of the Spirit but I never used them. If you are a discouraged Christain because God isn't giving you the chance to use the fruits of the Spirit walk into any Church and try and get involved and there will be a million and one opportunities to live out what you say you believe. You will find many enemies to love and pray for. I was in a home church for a little while with some people who were also burned by the "institution" but my home church was little more then a pity party. What changed things for me was I realized I should obey God and love people instead of hating them. I got the idea from some ancient christian document called the Bible. Whether this church is in a home, grocery store, converted cinema theatre doesn't matter.
I would go to a church and see things similar to how I was burned in the past and I would feel convicted to love them by the power of Almighty God living in me but I wouldn't do it. Instead I would shutdown and at the most find people with similar personalities as mine and determine that they were spiritual like me because they fit a particular personality type I could relate to. We would share our particular views on the Spirit filled life and agree with each other somewhat and that was the extent of Christian fellowship. Pretty easy to do and not much to stretch you spiritually. No need to edify each other because there is this understood agreement that we don't need to try too hard in this corrupt institutional church that has it all wrong. They don't fit my brand of Christianity so I will do things my way. The most active edifying attempt I would do would be to get mad and angry enough that I lashed out in righteous indignation about something I didn't like and then pray about my wounded spirit afterwards. It was totally self edifying to my ego.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'submission' here? Are you referring to Hebrews 13:7?



Yes this is what I'm talking about. We need to be willing to be held accountable by the body and to be disciplined. Pastor's are not exempt. A pastor who refuses to be a real normal person along with everyone else and have accountability and be disciplined has just disqualified himself as a pastor. We shouldn't envy the gift a pastor has and decide we will be our own pastor. A real pastor seeks after discipline and accountability he doesn't shun it.

 2005/2/17 18:46Profile









 Re: Loved that post Robert

Quote:
15) One camp believes going to church is 'compromise.'

Quote:
16) One camp believes NOT going to church is evidence of backsliding



I love that whole post, those point/counterpoints encapsulate the whole tension.

There's something about the term "institutional church" that I find...disturbing, it has an "us vs. them" dichotomy attached to it.

Prayerfully I say, it should be "us AND us".

See, I've been blessed and protected by God in the three years I've been walking with Him.

The Holy Ghost rang my bell at home, and He brought me to an Assemblies of God church 40 miles away from me, I was eager to drink of the Living Water before I even darkened that doorway....and the pastor there has become one of my dearest friends, AND a brother, a Blood bought brother........a FRIEND, and a mentor.

the lil church right down the road from the ranch.....well, right after I asked Jesus to tabernacle in my heart, I went down there to say hi to the pastor, (he's also a friend of mine now, and a Thursday night prayer partner, thank God)..after we were talking for an hour, I asked him if I could tarry at the altar...y'know pray a bit, he said ok...so I went in, knelt down, and I heard God say to me, "get out of there now".....I didnt know if it was God, so I said, "I just wanna pray here....please"...and then you know how you know its God's voice?....clear as day, "Neil, leave now...go to Hope". (the Assemblies church)

so I got up and split.

That lil church has been thru 2 years of sinful intercine court battles after they booted the pastor....and it would have dragged me down with it. This little church is the only "brick and mortar" Christian church in this small town.

The other church is a home one, I wrote about in my post "worshipping with drunks"....so this whole thing of how a home church is THE WAY.....the ONLY way...not so.

"Let God be God and dont try to dictate terms of revival". ( credit Duncan Campbell with that line)

thats one home church in Topanga, the other one I have to seperate from for private reasons, so God has me at an Assemblies church......am I denominational? no sir...I'm a follower of Jesus, period.

I'm sitting now in the library of Jack Hayfords "Kings College and Seminary", and sometimes the "institution" here wearies me, the dictates and needs of an institutional, but then I righten up and thank God for this place....oh man! , its got 173,000 books plus and more importantly, one of my Christian communities, with many many brothers and sisters in Christ who I love seeing, and love visiting with and love praying with.

This cyber haunt is a Christian community that is VERY important to me. Jeremy Hulsey the other day said its the sermons here, and downloading them that is the main thrust of the site, and while I do not disagree with him precisely, I do in a general nature. This website , is a prototemplate of another form, another wineskin of the church in the future. Which is why I prayerfully agree with the moderator's when they say that we must not get into a glass breaking mode around here....

I'm rambling, great post Robert.

 2005/2/17 19:37
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

KrispyKrittr

Quote:
The word "pastor" is mentioned once in the NT, and is interchangable with the word "elder".



The word pastor is only mentioned once in the KJV. The greek word that is used for pastor is poimen. I dont know about other versions but the word is only translated into two words, shepherd and pastor. Thayer says this about the word poimen.
poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes

Why do you think that elder is interchangable with pastor?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/2/17 20:07Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I like what Wilkerson said once," Go to a local assembly, even if all you do it pray that fire will come down from heaven."


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/2/17 20:10Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: Robert's Question

Robert writes:

Quote:
What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answer



[u][b]PART 2[/b][/u]

3) Pergamum:
This is the first city in Asia to support the imperial cult, where its citizens were required to worship the emperor. And for a citizen to refuse surely would bring the charge of treason. This city had dedicated an altar to Zeus, and a temple to Athena which may explain why the city was said to be the place where Satan had his throne?
The Lord recognized that this Church was true to His name. His name stands for all that He is, and this Church apparently only approached God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

But………. There was a problem, two problems in fact…

a. idolatry and sexual immortality: Certainly Balaam was a forerunner of all who would promote compromise with the World

b. following the teachings of the Nicolaitans: Ignatius, a disciple of John, referred to these people as impure, lovers of pleasure, corrupters of their own flesh.

The cure? As it always has, and will be …repentance, and when those members of this Church “changed their mind”, and went in the opposite direction they were promised spiritual food as they now were partaking of Christ. Every person in this Church who repented now were acquitted instead of being condemned. This person stands justified by faith in Christ and is again, acquitted of his sins as he stands before the throne of God. It is interesting to note, that once again these Church members were not told to jump ship, leave the Church, but rather to repent.



4) Thyatira

John tells us three things about Christ here, and nowhere else in The Revalation is Jesus called the Son of God, second his eyes are as fire which see far beyond our outward appearance, and third feet as of brass whereby all the enemies of the Cross will soon be trampled underfoot.

This Church was recognized for it’s love, it’s faith, it’s works and it’s patience.

But………there were some problems as well…….

The Church tolerated this false prophetess. The early church was accustomed to inspired teachings by way of prophetic utterances. Now, however there were strict guidelines set in place to regulate spiritual gifts. And the Church was instructed to “test” the spirits behind all utterances.
And because this spiritual adultery was allowed to coexist in the Church, there were some rather radical steps that were to be taken. We find the cure was once again REPENTANCE, and when sufficient time was allowed for repentance after came judgment. All the Churches were to know that God does not take a low view of sin, not by any stretch.

It is of special interest that Christ addresses another group in this Church which had no part on the doctrines of Jezebel,

they are told to:

a. work at converting Jezebel and her followers
b. totally denounce the doctrines and practices of Jezebel
c. keep holding on to the true doctrines and practices they obeyed
d. to pray for strength having done all to stand they were to remain standing against Jezebel’s teaching.

And the promise is to those who remain standing in the Church, these will someday have power over the nations.
Thank God, these people were told to “hold fast till I come”, not to run off and abandon the Church which Christ was to purify.





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Tony Sexton

 2005/2/17 20:11Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: out of church

I agree, Robert's post was excellent!

When i first left the institional church, i couldn't imagine going back becase I had discovered that they were so decieved in their beliefs- and I finally had learned that the "church" is not a building.

But as time has gone on and the Lord has stripped me of everything i thought i knew about Christianity and rebuilt on just the foundation of "Jesus" (researching church history helped me tremendously). I feel like I am ready to go and be involved. I do not feel mad or upset or "burned". I was never burned or anything like that. I was just disappointed to find out that people were not living what they said they believed and i hadn't been either, and no one had been there to teach me any different. Hypocrisy was rampant.

We have tried a few churches and there is much compromise. Some more that others. I do long to be part of a church body that i can give myself to and that our family can get involved with- but He has yet to show us where to go. But I am waiting patiently.

Being out of the inst. church, i see many opportunities to serve outside of the church building. You tend to notice regular people more-and what they might need.

Since our kids are not in "Sunday school"- we are responsible for their spiritual education- which makes us much more accountable. We don't just drop them off in a class and let someone else do the teaching. It's so easy to get caught up in that whole church scene where adults do this and the kids go do their thing. That this is the way to do things, yadda yadda, yadda.

I have met the neatest people who have a deep desire to know the Lord and to do His will- from all different types of churches - and people who don't go to church at all.

My perspective has changed so much by being "out". You see things from such a bigger picture. But I wouldn't mind at all if the Lord showed us a place to go and attend. I would welcome it actually. But, we must wait. When the time is right, He will show us.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2005/2/17 20:13Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: Robert's Question

Robert writes:

Quote:
What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answer



[u][b]Part 3[/b][/u]

5) Sardis:

The problems in this Church are addressed right straight from the start………

This Church it seems had a very good reputation before men, possibly it had all the current programs and was at the top in organization. But, Christ makes it clear that our reputation with Him is the measuring stick!

To their credit, apparently they had a little strength left. The Church is told to watch and strengthen what little remained. The Church is told to remember all they had received and to grasp on to it with all the strength that remained.

A great warning was sounded to this Church, the door of mercy was open wide to them and they must respond or suffer eternal loss. To reject the Bible as God’s word is to be ignorant of the signs of the times, and thus will not understand the time of His coming.

Take courage overcomer, Christ singles out the few in this Sardis Church who had not defiled their garments and fallen away from God. They were in this Church and are promised to be dressed in white and their names will remain in the Book of Life.

And so in essence, those in this Church are told to wake up, and turn from their sins….repent. The same message in fact given to all the other Churches.


6) Philadelphia:

It could be, the most important part of this letter is what was not written. There is nothing which Christ disapproves of in this Church. The very word “Philadelphia” means brotherly love. It describes a Church whose people were bearing and forbearing of one another. It describes a Church whose people were patient with each other. It describes a people who were faithful to their calling and of their service to God.

Christ sets before this Church an open door. An open door for becoming a servant and reaching this world with the Gospel. An open door in Nursing Homes, an open door in Prisons, an open door in Children’s homes, and open door at homeless shelters, an open door wherever and whenever there is a hurting soul that needs a friend to care.

The people in this Church are told to hold firmly to what has been afforded them. These people are told that Christ would soon come and no one would take the crown that awaited them.

And so take courage believer, God sees your labor of Love as you work in your Church, it has not gone unnoticed.


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2005/2/17 21:51Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: Out of Church Christians

I consider myself to be an "out of church" Christian. From what I understood you to mean as I read through the thread here, out of church meaning out of the church as an institution. I've been "out" for about 6 months now. I left because I believed God directed me to leave. I wasn't angry with anyone, although I must say that things happened which I was very unagreeable with. This is the first time in my life that I have been out of church. I believe God directed me to leave in order to uproot alot of dependency which I had on things other than him. He has been bringing me into a real, solid relationship with himself because I don't have anything or anyone else to rely on. And I believe he did it because I wasn't real. I did not have vital reality. I could talk all the talk, but I had no real understanding of God. I've come to realize that I don't know anything if I don't think like God thinks about things. And you can't think like God thinks unless you are intimate with him. And you can't be intimate with him if you spend every waking minute running here and there. I had to slow my life down so I would have time to spend alone with God.

I still go to churches, but I don't have a commitment to any particular one. I have commitment to people that I am in real relationship with. I talk with them. I pray with them. I worship with them. I study with them. I eat with them. I cry and laugh with them. I take most of my sermons from this website. I listen to them as I work everyday. Leaving the institutional church has been the best thing I ever did for my spiritual growth. Love, Dian.

 2005/2/17 22:04Profile
StevenL
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 40


 Re:

The scolding and chastisement for those who "abandon the church" is only valid if you accept the definition of "church" as it defines itself today. Generally:

An incorporated organization that is affiliated with a particular group or denomination...

That is keeping a "sabbath" in some way.

That demands "tithes" of its adherents to support the "Levitical ministry."

That conducts ritual worship services of some sort at specific times on specific days.

That is ruled by A Pastor, possibly a Senior and an Associate Pastor, mostly just one Pastor in small churches.

That listens to "sermons" on Sunday given by The Pastor from behind a pulpit, usually with crosses or doves engraved on it.

That keeps the Roman Catholic holy days in some form or other.

For those of us who don't accept this definition of Christ's Called-Out Assembly, the charge of abandoning the church is meaningless. I rather think of it as abandoning a failed system to participate in the True Assembly of God's people. Since most are still trying to uphold the System, the True one is largely neglected so that it can't function fully as written. But God is still manifesting Himself to the Little Flock just as He promised. Praise the Lord!


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Steve Lindsey

 2005/2/17 22:05Profile





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