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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : prefall or post fall (Sarx) ??

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: prefall or post fall (Sarx) ??

Heb 4:15
(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Php 2:6-8
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:14-18
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It is my understanding that He became like me in all things, including a post fall flesh. He was in all points tempted like I was. Yet, He endured and had victory in the temptation and did not sin. Wow! This gives me great hope and encouragement. This means that one who NEVER sinned and yet was tempted in ALL points as I am is the one who can give me help in my own temptation.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

The term "Christ" means the one who is anointed of God. Jesus said several times that the things He said and did were not of Himself but came from the Father. In Philippians when Paul talks of Jesus making Himself of no reputation, another very good translation, and in fact probably a better translation of that statement is that He emptied Himself. Emptied Himself of what? Divine privilege and ability. This is why He said in Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

This is a great blessing because He has sent me the Holy Spirit to empower me with the same Spirit that indwelt Him.

I know that was a bit beyond a simple answer to the question, but I have been blessed by having these scriptures come back to me and study them one more time. Thanks for the question. I needed to think on these things again.


_________________
Travis

 2012/7/28 14:03Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  twayneb

Hey twayneb how are the Hay fields looking in Joplin, I am about a hour half south Springfield, there is almost no Hay to be found in the area

 2012/7/28 14:07Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: twayneb

good verses to think about

//Heb 2:14-18
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.//

 2012/7/28 14:26Profile









 Re: Your Questions!

Quote:
What was it that changed in Mans nature at the Fall?



Adam passed out of life into death. Before his fall Adam was able, at any time to eat of the Tree of Life. Had he done so he would have possessed God’s own life and lived for ever! When he fell he fell into death, lost the opportunity to possess God’s own life and thereafter became self-dependant.

Quote:
What changes do we see happening internally:

From Genesis 2:25
"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

To Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons"



In Genesis 2:25 Adam and Eve were innocent. By Genesis 3:7 Adam and Eve were both guilty. This act of making clothes for themselves was the first self-reliant action of man. When Adam took of the fruit from Eve this was man’s first independent action. Eve was deceived and as such could not have acted independently. Being deceived she was acting under an influence. Adam was not deceived and hence he acted independently. This is why sin is reckoned through Adam.

Quote:
In what way was there eyes opened?



Their eyes were opened to see nakedness. Innocence precluded any knowledge of nakedness. Only after gaining the knowledge of good and evil, could they see that nakedness produces lust. Whilst innocent they were not aware nor could they experience lust. Their having been given to one another with the implication of their having union of their bodies was holy in that holiness means being set apart. Adam and Eve were created for one another physically and so their union would have been a holy act of exclusivity. Jesus confirmed this exclusivity whilst contending with the Pharisees who sought to trick him regarding marriage. As the Law of Moses had permitted divorce on the grounds of unfaithfulness they sought to set a snare for Jesus. However the Lord showed by His speech that “God had not intended it to be so from the beginning”. The very fact that Adam and Eve existed alone without others, clearly establishes this fact. It would have been impossible for them to have been unfaithful. They were created exclusively for one another.

Quote:
In what way did this change their nature?



Nature may mean “that which is natural” or it may mean “the whole substance of their being”. God formed man from the ground and breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Spirit, Soul and Body. God said, “in the day you eat thereof, you shall die”.

Death became their condition. Brought about through sin in disobedience and independence. Not only did death reign in Adam after the fall so also the law of sin and death reigned in his body. His soul after having acted independently of God’s commandment and warning ,continued independently thereafter.


In contrast the 2nd Adam had a sinless body, acted dependently on the Father and lives forever.

 2012/7/28 15:04
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: twayneb

Brother, I have never seen it so dry in my lifetime. Old timers tell me that there was a spell in the 1950's like this. I am praying for rain. I have good friends in the Ava / Taneyville / Bradleyville area. Anywhere close to there?


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Travis

 2012/7/28 18:15Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Ya about 45 min from Ava,

I just looked outside we just had a new baby calf born , I do not know what we are going to do this winter the fields are dead.

 2012/7/28 18:36Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: amrkelly

Hey amkelly, great post with some great insight articulated beatufuly, I have some further questions to bounce off of what is wrote, but not much time now. When I get more time though.

 2012/7/29 13:47Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: amrkelly

RE: //Adam passed out of life into death. Before his fall Adam was able, at any time to eat of the Tree of Life. Had he done so he would have possessed God’s own life and lived for ever! When he fell he fell into death, lost the opportunity to possess God’s own life and thereafter became self-dependant.//

excelant thoughts

RE://In Genesis 2:25 Adam and Eve were innocent. By Genesis 3:7 Adam and Eve were both guilty. This act of making clothes for themselves was the first self-reliant action of man.//

Excelant thought very true about "first self-reliant"

RE:/When Adam took of the fruit from Eve this was man’s first independent action./

I like how you wisley seperated self-reliant from independent actions.

I have a quetion though on what you are defining as an independent action?? I guess you might be implying independent of Gods set boundaries, independant of Gods Provisions, Which would be true. I find interesting that there was however within those boundaries and provisions freedom of choice " And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat" (Except of course).
'I am just thinking as I am writing so please excuse me for answering my own questions, and feel free to add or correct any of my thoughts.'
It reminds me of this morning, I allowed my two year old son to pick what clothes he wanted to ware. He picked wisely but had he picked a heavy coat, seeing that it will probably get over a hundred degrees today, He would have been crossing my boundry and I would not allow it, As a 2 year old, He is completely dependant upon my provisions and boundries. yet with in those I give him a certain amount of freedom. (as I said just typing as I am thinking feel free to add or correct where needed)

RE: //Eve was deceived and as such could not have acted independently. Being deceived she was acting under an influence. Adam was not deceived and hence he acted independently. This is why sin is reckoned through Adam.//

articulated beautifuly gives me some meat to chew on and sheds light on "1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression"
And sheds light on /why sin is reckoned through Adam/

I Will try to get to the rest of the post later, Thanks amrkelly your post is very wisely thought out








 2012/7/31 13:09Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

2 John 1:7:-For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

it is very important for us to understand that Jesus came in the likeness of our flesh. Which means we can also overcome this world in this flesh. We are initially born of man and hence inherit the sinful nature of man. But Jesus was born of spirit, hence he did not inherit the sinful nature like us. When we accept Jesus as our saviour and born again, We are born now of the spirit like how Jesus was, hence there is no reason for us to have deliberate sin in our post born again life.

I believe the only diff in Adam's flesh before and after fall is the presence of this sinful nature. Since Jesus did not have this nature, he had pre fall flesh.


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Sreeram

 2012/7/31 15:34Profile









 Re: Independent Actions

Quote:
I have a quetion though on what you are defining as an independent action?? I guess you might be implying independent of Gods set boundaries, independant of Gods Provisions, Which would be true.proudpapa



I think that what I have in mind in speaking of an independent action is probably the same as saying that Adam's eating of the fruit offered him by Eve, reflected Adam's power to act in disobedience to God commandment not to eat of that fruit. I have read a few times here on SI questions about why God allowed Adam to sin. My reply has always been that God didn't allow Adam to sin. God in fact forbade Adam to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, of Good and Evil. This is not allowing. This is disallowing. The only realistic explanation I have read on this subject has been one offered by Watchman Nee in which Nee points to the fact that Adam had a free will. As such he had the power of his own will to obey God or disobey God. In choosing to eat of this fruit Adam clearly disobeyed God. As Adam was not deceived he must have been at that moment inclined to disobey God from his own understanding and desire. This is the meaning of independence. The real question therefore must be why did God give Adam a free will? And why was Adam inclined at that moment to disobey God? Adam was not given a choice about whether he obeyed or disobeyed God. No one has that choice.It would be absurd to believe that we can choose to disobey God. But the power of free will does make it possible to follow ones own inclinations rather than God's will. Even today for those of us who have believed in God and Christ, we still find that we are faced with the terrible reality of denying our selves in order to follow Christ, or else choosing our selves and thereby denying Christ in our actions and words.

Once that choice was made by Adam to follow His own inclination and desire he ever more makes every other action or word spoken or thought entered into, a terrible struggle between following ones own inclinations or else obeying God. This is the real meaning and consequence of independence. As it is the physical body itself which falls into and under the power of sin and death, it is the body itself which provides the most difficult challenge. "This body of sin and death" in Romans is the physical body. When the heart and the mind are governed by this body of sin and death, they also become flesh. The reason for the flood is eluded to by a description of the decent into this carnal mind and heart.

This condition is so strong that it took the giving of the Law of Moses to bring it into visibility. It took the Law of Moses to make sense of it. "Until the Law said "you shall not covet" I knew not what it was to covet"" Moreover God himself must give us the power to believe in Christ. We cannot even believe in Christ without God's saving Grace and a gift of faith to believe. Independence in the end means death, because "in the day you eat thereof, you shall die". Whereas dependance means life, because through Christ's own obedience, we shall live.

 2012/8/1 17:35





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