Poster | Thread |
| An Alarm Unheeded | | Saints I feel I am the sole voice raising a concern about this issue in Phoenix. And no one seems the least bit concerned. Those who have responded said simply the brother is in rebellion. So let him go to jail and pay the fine and we go back to our dreamy bubble.
Does anybody not get the implication of what is going on here?. A Bible study was shut down. Not in China or Iran. But in America. Yeah, there were some code violations. But saints it was a Bible study. Why the use if SWAT tactics against code violations.? Why an excessive fine and 60 days in jail for the Bible study leader?
What is troubling about this incident is it is a frequent pattern of things happening across America. In California a couple was fined for having a Bible study in their home. The town of Gilbert AZ has banned Bibke studies in their corporate limits. Across the nation Bibles are not permitted in schools. And in some cases in the work place. It was posted a dew weeks ago a police chaplain could not pray in the name of Jesus. Do we not see what is happening here. Ok. This is not a glamerous contro thread. Persecution never is. But saints let us be aware if what is going on here. Ok. Back to the gap theory.
Bearmaster. |
| 2012/7/13 22:00 | | Trekker Member
Joined: 2011/7/29 Posts: 683 northern USA
| Re: An Alarm Unheaded | | I believe the word you meant in your headline is spelled "unheeded". I dont think the story has gone unheeded. From what i have been told, the man built a large building in his backyard to hold the Bible studies in and violated building codes and/or did not have a building permit. That is not an attack on Bible studies or Christianity, that is just the man disobeying the law who happens to be a practicing Christian. |
| 2012/7/13 22:16 | Profile | proudpapa Member
Joined: 2012/5/13 Posts: 2936
| Re: An Alarm Unheaded | | Hi Bear, I am reminded of a book I read by Harvey Yoder, A true story of Mikhail Khorev a Christian Russian during the WW2 Soviet Union, That is How they start, Just making ordinances and small Rules making the Churches regester with the State and than making one State Church where they implant the Preachers. Those who have Bible studies or preach outside of that setting go to Jail. It just got worse and worse, His Dad died in Prison for being a Christian But compromising Christians just change with the system.
edit (PS get the book and notice how the soviets start with codes and ordinances and things just get worse from there)
good book http://www.amazon.com/Small-Price-Pay-Harvey-Yoder/dp/1885270518 |
| 2012/7/13 22:28 | Profile | sermonindex Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11 Posts: 39795 Canada
Online! | Re: | | Quote:
Saints I feel I am the sole voice raising a concern about this issue in Phoenix. And no one seems the least bit concerned. Those who have responded said simply the brother is in rebellion. So let him go to jail and pay the fine and we go back to our dreamy bubble.
Does anybody not get the implication of what is going on here?. A Bible study was shut down. Not in China or Iran. But in America. Yeah, there were some code violations. But saints it was a Bible study. Why the use if SWAT tactics against code violations.? Why an excessive fine and 60 days in jail for the Bible study leader?
Dear Brother,
I have been considering this more and do agree with you it is not black and white there is a precedent being set here and this issue has been very public. There is cause for concern, I do believe the urgency also of the upcoming conference on persecution is well suited with this issue: http://sermonindex2012.eventbrite.ca/
May God prepare His Church. _________________ SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2012/7/13 22:38 | Profile | mama27 Member
Joined: 2010/11/20 Posts: 1482
| Re: | | This has not gone unheeded with me either....but the attacks are coming so fast and furiously on both a national and personal front. I am just weary....very, very weary of the countless things that have come into my life to be concerned about and to pray about....all things concerning the Kingdom. It is like many prayer requests that are posted on this site....sometimes one just doesn't have the time to respond...but that doesn't mean people aren't praying, nor has this issue gone unnoticed. It is grievous - violations of code or not..... |
| 2012/7/13 23:25 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: An Alarm Unheaded | | From Rom 13:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is Gods minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Gods minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are Gods ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Love Your Neighbor 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet, and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
_________________ Todd
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| 2012/7/13 23:49 | Profile | proudpapa Member
Joined: 2012/5/13 Posts: 2936
| RE: TMK | | Hi TMK you brought up Romans 13, what has always puzzled me is this is Paul writing, How is it believed Paul Died? Whom is it believed took Pauls Life?? just some thoughts that come to mind when I read this chapter. |
| 2012/7/14 0:05 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | The ruling authorities took Paul's life.
The situation in AZ, in my mind is far different than say the situation in China. In China it is ILLEGAL to be a Christian. Since we must obey man rather than God they have no choice but to go against the law and meet secretly.
In AZ, it is not illegal to be a Christian. It IS illegal to violate building and zoning codes, etc. Further, the neighbors have made it plain to this man that they are not happy about all the traffic etc on their street every weekend.
So instead of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" and putting his neighbor's own interests at least on an equal par with his own, he is rebellious and refuses to follow the law or make peace with his neighbors.
I'm sorry, but that is just a bad testimony. If his gathering is that large it is time to rent a space.
What if the people meeting on this man's property was a coven of witches, or nudists? Would we feel differently? _________________ Todd
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| 2012/7/14 7:32 | Profile | Trekker Member
Joined: 2011/7/29 Posts: 683 northern USA
| Re: | | QUOTE: "In AZ, it is not illegal to be a Christian. It IS illegal to violate building and zoning codes, etc. Further, the neighbors have made it plain to this man that they are not happy about all the traffic etc on their street every weekend."==TMZ
Exactly. And he is bringing shame on Christ and Christianity by doing so. |
| 2012/7/14 10:37 | Profile |
| Re: When we are adamant to do whatever we want, even against the law. This is rebelli | | "Exactly. And he is bringing shame on Christ and Christianity by doing so."...Trekker
With civilization and progress comes building codes, probably for 1000s of years; To have streets and sewage, and protection from sweeping fires etc.
It would not have mattered a bit if this man was a Mormon, a JW, or a Muslim; he wanted to build a church house on his property in a resedential zone. [ 2000 sq. feet ]. He was warned repeatedly by city officials to cease this meeting in this building, as it was unsafe according to city law, and was not zoned commercial to handle the traffic. He scoffed at the city officials, citing Free Religion.
He was still allowed a smaller meeting within his home. He refused, and chose to oppose the city counsel, enraging them. The prosecutor wanted to give him a few YEARS in prison, for his insolence. He cried "WOLF!; Oh! I am persecuted!" He was not. He was simply found guilty of a crime .
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists [ this ambitious preacher ] the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. [ 90 days and a several thousand dollar fine].
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same."
Yes, there is real persecution out there from the anti-Christ spirits who despise the Word of God against those who carry it, and proclaim it. This incident and this man do not apply. |
| 2012/7/14 11:11 | |
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