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Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA


And Vice Versa, yeah?

 2012/7/14 14:12Profile

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211

 Re: His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

More insight into the Serpent.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea (sea can be a metaphor for world or peoples in the world, great multitude).

The phrase ‘crooked or piercing serpent’ comes from the Hebrew 'nachash beriyach.’ ‘beriyach’ literally means bars which a fugitive flees from. This is the word used for the bars in the Tabernacle (Exodus 26:26-29).

Psalm 107:16 speaks of GOD delivering man from these bars.

Psalm 107 has amazing imagery of GOD delivering mankind from the hand of the enemy….

Psa 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

{Satan is the enemy of mankind, in Hebrew Satan’ literally means enemy or the one who opposes}

Psa 107:3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
Psa 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. {The wilderness is where serpents dwell Deuteronomy 8:15; Job 30:29; Psalm 44:19; Malachi 1:3}

Psa 107:5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. {This is where Satan tempts - Matthew 4:2-4}


 2012/7/14 14:30Profile

Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA

 I agree with you, too!

Thank you for keeping me on the right path about this translation stuff.

Yes. I accept the "serpent" interpretation.

Thank You.



 2012/7/14 14:38Profile

 Re: We are in agreement

Yes, Jesus-Is-GOD!

I will continue to accept the "serpent" translation / interpretation.

Yet, where "nachash" is used in Exodus in the turning the rod/staff to a snake especially in the battle with Pharaoh's gods, another translation of the word "nachash" includes words that connote "one who practices divination" which matches the context of Exodus 7: 10-13...

Exodus 7: 11:

"Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:"

...whereby Pharoah's "serpents" represent this particular translation of the "nachash"

NASB Exhaustive Concordance:

results of divination (1), divined (1), enchantments (1), indeed practice divination (1), indeed uses (1), interprets omens (1), practice divination (1), took as an omen (1), used divination (2).

Hi Friend, posting on the run here, forgive if it sounds that way ... gotta go.

In Exodus 7 - the word used for serpent[s] is not "nachash" but "tannıym", which Strong's translates as "(The second form used in Eze_29:3); intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, that is, sea serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale."

And that word is found used 27 times translated as such in the KJV -
dragons, 15
Deu_32:33, Job_30:29, Psa_44:19, Psa_74:13, Psa_148:7, Isa_13:22, Isa_34:13, Isa_35:7, Isa_43:20, Jer_9:11, Jer_10:22, Jer_14:6, Jer_49:33, Jer_51:37, Mic_1:8
dragon, 6
Psa_91:13 (2), Isa_27:1, Isa_51:9, Jer_51:34, Eze_29:3
serpent, 2
Exo_7:9-10 (2)
monsters, 1
serpents, 1
whale, 1
Job_7:12 (2)
whales, 1

When you speak of "nachash" being divination, etc - that would be the word numbered in Strongs' as H5172 defined as such "A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe."

--- whereas there is the "nachash" that, strangely enough, is numbered differently in the Strong's as H5175 and defined as such - "From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent."

I gave the occurences of H5175 earlier in the thread.

So - I recommend maybe downloading or some other Bible program that gives the Textus Receptus Numbered to the Strongs' that's normally only found with the KJV - so that we all can stay on the same page, or book.

I'm just finding your post quoted above and I'm sorry it's receiving such a hurried reply but at the same time - I was just thinking of you and hoping you'd expound more on your other post - that has to do with "Self" consciousness being the root and affect of the fall. Right on!
I call it "self-centeredness or self-focused" but I think it's all the same.
I liked the direction that you were going with that topic, very much.

Thank you so much for your contributions.

Only one question - Do you live in the U.S. or elsewhere. No need to say what State or country - just wanted to know if you're here or somewhere else.


editing to add: I find another mystery that although "tannıym" is used in Exodus 7 --- it is "H5175 -nâchâsh" that GOD used with Moses in Exo 4:3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

I could really find a rod like that quite useful. :)

Any symbolic interpretation of what "the rod" is?

 2012/7/14 15:02

Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA

 Re: H5175


Thank you for the expansion of the "nacash" and "nachash tanniym" translations.

I contribute nothing except enthusiastic curiosity and fascination with God's Word. It is a sustaining delight.
I'm afraid that I have spoiled myself with His Word because the only time my brain lights up is when its touched by His Word.

It used to light up with philosophy but it has become the handmaiden to God's wisdom.

I live in the USA.

Perhaps the nachash showed Eve a mirror (which like, him, shines). Eve looked in this mirror, saw herself for the first time, and was captivated by her own image as it appeared in God’s image.

This image (which we still worship to this day and which Christ warned us about at the end of the Bible) was there from the very inception of sin. Self-Image and God's Image all in one creature. What a combination.

The response was not only shame and guilt, but pride. Pride which preceded the Fall of the nachash also preceded that of mankind. If the tempter wanted man to Fall, wouldn't he uses the same devices which ensured his own undoing?

Self-consciousness is a necessary condition for breeding pride, which "cometh before The Fall".

Pride which arose from Eve seeing her own reflection for the first time in God's image, yet taking credit for it.

This developed into an immediate self-preoccupation. Look a bit closer and they see themselves in the image of their "disobedience to God" - cover is blown, nakedness results. Shame and guilt arise.

What a horrific experience it is to see the world through one's own eyes. Self-focus upsets the subject/object barrier and balance of man's identity. yeah?

And most APA psych journals trace the origin of mental illness epidemics such as "Depression" and "Manic Depression" with narcissism.

Anxiety, even, can be traced to the absence of humility.

I used to be an objectivist in high school. Thank the Lord for His deliverance from that. My AP Biology and English teachers introduced me to Ayn Rand novels and almost damned my soul.

Yet, I remember what is what like to consider selfishness a virtue. It is a scary and dangerous place for the soul to tread. Selfishness is more vicious than any other vice.
It perpetuates all other evils. It is the very nucleus of malice.

 2012/7/14 16:40Profile


I was thinking after your first post on 'self consciousness' that the shining-one was 'the light bearer' but if you've read much about satanism - it's everything that was by and from GOD "in reverse". Even in "reverse speech"... meaning that one would diliberately say the opposite of what is true. We hear that a lot from politicians.

But back to 'the light bearer' the father of lies - 'his' "light" would be a counterfeit light and yet spiritually affective.
Jesus is The Light. Satan's light is a counterfeit and it causes the person to focus on self, if it can.
You said some very profound things in your first post that brings a lot of Light to what Satan did in the Garden and has done ever since.

While pondering these things, this verse came to mind - Psa 36:9 For with Thee is the fountain of life: *in Thy light shall we see light.*
But under the influence of the "angel of light" we get that counterfeit light that causes the person to focus on self -- and as you had said - the focus is off of The True Light which is Christ. Satan shines the 'spot light' on "us" - whereas The HOLY Spirit shines the spot light on Christ Jesus, The Word of GOD made flesh and what He's written and off of self.

As they say - getting self off of the throne where only He belongs.
Satan wanted to ascend unto GOD's Throne, or even above it.

Satan's sin is our sin - if we allow it. "You can be as God" ... Satan said that First for himself.

Whenever we put self first - we're bordering or entering Lucifers' sin/pride that got him knocked out of his original position.

If you have ever met a man, "posing as a righteous minister of light" - then you know how utterly deceptive they can be. Quoting the Bible and getting "words of wisdom and/or knowledge" and no one is exempt from being deceived unless their dependence is so child like in trusting GOD.

I agree with so much of what you've written in your two posts on "self" and glad you somehow brought this into this thread.

There are two spiritual "light sources" and the one, as you said, shines it all on us and the True Light shines solely on Him.

Satan wanted the glory and to be glorified. How close he can get, to get us to do the same with our own lives.

*in thy light, shall we see light* - that can go for the light of the wicked light bearer, that angel of light [2Corth 11:13-15] or The Light Himself. Who's light are we basking in. If it's self focused - we know it's the master counterfeiter of the True and Divine Light, The GOD that deserves all of the focus and glory.
If the Light focuses our minds on Christ [as you said in your first post about self] then we know that we're walking in His Light. Even The Holy Spirit doesn't speak of Himself but directs all attention to Christ.

Wonderful stuff, KP. Maybe our terminology differs to slight degrees but the point is - the Focus is where it needs to be.

So much of the world is to 'look out for number 1' - as they say, and that's the mentality that Lucifer had that caused and was his fall ... as you've rightly said, leads to or is 'pride'.
Self-focusedness is pride.

Lots of good stuff in this 2nd post of yours as well.

Essential to coming into His Image and not the self-oriented image of the evil one or counterfeit god - even if it seems to be a humble focusing on self over our own short-comings - if it's continuous, something's wrong with our vision, faith and the Light we're walking in. It's all just focused on 'self'.

Thank you for bringing this severely important issue to the table. I may be a bit tired after todays' busy-ness, but this issue of The Light and who's light is it that we're walking in, has stayed with me.
We can come to understand who's light we're walking in by 'whom' is being focused on or is in the spot-light in each hour of our day - so we can redirect our the focus of our every thought taken captive to the obedience of Christ - Who was "GOD and others minded" as you've said in your first post about self.
Seems easy enough :)

By what the light is focusing on - we know who's light we're walking in.

Bless GOD!

 2012/7/14 23:23

Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA


This comment reminds me of the fact that the closer a lie is to the truth, the more deceptive it is. This pattern was set in the Fall.

Self-consciousness is soooo hard to criticize in this world, whereby, as you say, we are constantly "looking out for number 1".

Darwin was on to something with his first law of nature being that of "self-preservation".

Yeah. When I first studied the Gospel of Mark and God revealed the preciousness of the servant life through the actions of Christ, the Lord shifted my heart's motivation from self-interest to serving others.

Yet, when a new desire is born in one's spirit through Christ, an old one dies and it can be very painful. Now, I am only energized, motivated and happy when I'm not conscious of myself and acting in the interest of others.

The focus inevitably shifts back to the corpse of the self-interest and I fall into a pit of despair, almost automatically. When I am depressed or unhappy, without peace, I know it is because I am focusing on my self rather than Him. The focus must remain on Him, not necessarily others, because "otherness" can also be a manifestation of selfishness.

Otherness can entrap you into the "Romeo and Juliet" syndrome. My focus has to be on serving Him and then the Lord directs me from there. It is not even up to me as to whom I shall serve, where should I voulnteer, which person or group should devote or commit to. I devote to Christ first and then He directs my interests from there.

This type of life is almost impossible to explain to people, so I don't bother. But I am so glad that I could share this with someone who knows what it means to truly care for others. It can only be done through abiding in Christ...and His Word abiding in you.

I lived most of my life as a self-worshipping knit-wit. Even to the point of "objectivism" (wow, what a miracle to be delivered from that level of deep self-deception). I really thought it was ALLLL About Me! Oh God, what a slippery slope to oblivion!

I understand why prosperity is more dangerous to a man's soul than poverty. Poverty keeps us in a blessed state where we are constantly looking to God for our material provision. A Blessed state, indeed. I used to look to the wealthy as a source of wisdom, but no more! Wisdom is more likely to be found in the hearts of the poor.

I love your salutation from Galatians! That's what it's all about.



 2012/7/15 13:58Profile


Very well said, KP.

If we love Him and His Word more than anyone or anything else and more than our 'self' - then and only then can we love others with His love and not some love that's actually meant to benefit our self. ie. the "I want to be liked" syndrome or neurosis.

Thank you very much, friend.

I'd love to hear more of what you started on 'Biblical' Psychology. Blessings!

 2012/7/15 15:31

Joined: 2012/7/12
Posts: 185
Southeast USA

 Re: Positive Psychology

There's this Professor doing studies in "Positive Psychology" on forgiveness, mercy and humility. His name is E. Worthington and I found him giving a Chapel service on the Dallas Theological Seminary website (my dream school!).

His brother commited suicide and left his suicide note addressed to him. He was the last person he spoke to before he took his life and Prof. Worthington (unwittingly) suggested that his (own) brother see a therapist. Worthington was a successful psychology professor at the time but most importantly "Am I (not) my brother's keeper?"

Uh, the guilt Prof. Worthington endured was resurrected into an academic career in developing Positive Psychology which included field studies and all. I would love to be his research assistant/servant. He works from the premise that most mental illnesses can be traced to unresolved guilt (a manifestation of the Fall).

I agree with him. He developed an APA approved group therapeutic model on forgiveness and has successfully applied it to "Victim's assistance" and "Forgiveness" projects which attempt to reconcile the victim with the aggressor in incremental face-to-face encounters.

See, Jesus-Is-God, there is still good working in this world. Just not as hard as darkness, which puts in overtime. I would love to work in contribution to Positive Psychology.

In particular, Worhtington is trying to secure a place in psychology for Christian psychotherapy as he believes that if not for his faith, he would not have been delivered from the guilt of his brother's suicide.

He used his own experience to deduce that many other individuals struggling with varying degrees of mental illness could possibly benefit from a psychology which incorporates their faith. He is a supporter of Christian psychotherapy and his academic work focuses on the elaboration of this branch of "Positive psychology".

I want to be a positive psychologist, Jesus-Is-God!

Psychotherapy originated in the Levitican priesthood. Isn't the role of a Levite priest identical to that of a psychotherapist? Did not the priest work to reconcile and restore a man's relationship with God via the system of sacrifices which God deemed appropriate at the time.

Peter reminds us of as our essential usefulness to God via faith through grace with our eternal role as priest-king. I'm not so much interested in the "king" part, but the priesthood is God's model for what the world refers to as "psychotherapy".

Melchizedek had such a profound impact of Abraham's psychological state, that he was able to refuse the offerings of the King of Sodom after his battle with the Kings of Cherdolamer (sp).

I would love it if the Lord called me to the field of psychotherapy! Boy! Would that be an opportunity to operate in discipleship or what?

The work of the priesthood is the penultimate experience of a disciple of Christ. The call to heal others by faith through grace AND glorify God at the same time! What a true labor of true love!


I don't catch rides on bandwagons but I would love to study more closely the field of christian psychotherapy.

I know that I must sound foolish, but it's worth the risk when sharing what is truly on my heart.



 2012/7/15 20:35Profile


Hi KP, was gone for the day again.

I think you're doing just fine with what you've posted earlier - as far as Biblical Counseling goes and are on the right track with what you've written earlier ...

**The response was not only shame and guilt, but pride. Pride which preceded the Fall of the nachash also preceded that of mankind. If the tempter wanted man to Fall, wouldn't he uses the same devices which ensured his own undoing?

Self-consciousness is a necessary condition for breeding pride, which "cometh before The Fall".

Pride which arose from Eve seeing her own reflection for the first time in God's image, yet taking credit for it.

This developed into an immediate self-preoccupation. Look a bit closer and they see themselves in the image of their "disobedience to God" - cover is blown, nakedness results. Shame and guilt arise.

What a horrific experience it is to see the world through one's own eyes. Self-focus upsets the subject/object barrier and balance of man's identity. yeah?

And most APA psych journals trace the origin of mental illness epidemics such as "Depression" and "Manic Depression" with narcissism.

Anxiety, even, can be traced to the absence of humility.**

There's a Psychiatrist that's secular - but if you go to your library and get the book by Dr. William Glasser by the title "Reality Therapy" but then Biblicize his idea - you'll be a professional - combined with your thoughts above.

GOD sends people our way by Divine appointment. You pray and He'll send them to you and if that's your calling - you'll surely be given words of wisdom --- when you open your mouth, He'll fill it --- with exactly what HE knows that each person needs to hear.

I don't believe too much in any set form of "therapy" or "methods" - but do believe with all of my heart - that HE knows what is inside of each person - things that they themselves and no one else knows about and you just need to give Him your mouth and trust Him for whatever comes out.
Reckon they call that walking in the Spirit - book of Acts style?

:) Bless you!!

 2012/7/15 21:43

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