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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : WHY the "TEA PARTY" is UNCHRISTIAN by Andrew Strom

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 Re:

delete, double post.

 2012/7/10 20:56
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Frank,

Again, I wasn't taking on any "challenge" because that was obviously not the intent of my post.

However, the "limited argument" (as you call it) would never be needed if well-meaning believers didn't stereotype or label an entire group based upon a personal assumption that it is reflective of the group as a whole.

When a believer turns to ACCUSATIONS of a group and subtly inserts the assumption that all or most believers who vote, participate in service, etc... think and behave a certain way, then I believe that they have given in to an age old "who THEY know" -- or how they think others feel/think/pray/stand/believe fallacy.

Now, I am not attacking Brother Andrew or anyone who shares his opinion. I have read many of Brother Andrew's posts and I agree with most of what he writes. In this case, I do not agree with everything that he writes here. He makes valid points on the base spiritual issues. That is not in question. However, it is in the operation of those things and how they relate to believers who may feel led to vote or respond in which I disagree.

Of course, we should be careful about proclaiming anything to be "biblically sound" when such things are based upon our own opinions that aren't expressly, clearly and exactly spelled out in the Word of God. Every division in the Body of Christ began when one believer (or a group of believers) felt that something was "biblically sound" that others did not.

As sincere children of God, we all believe that we are following sound doctrine. If we didn't, we wouldn't be sincere believers. This is my constant prayer. I believe that this is true of others including many of those that I might disagree with.

It is always dangerous when a believer will not allow another the grace to wholeheartedly seek God for answers in such issues that are either non-essential to the faith or not expressly clear in the Word of God. Even if they claim that something is expressly clear, the fact that there is disagreement among sincere believers makes such a claim moot.

In this case, we should impress believers to seek the Lord before involving themselves in such groups. We should prayerfully and honestly present our issues or concerns -- especially those that aren't based upon rumor, deduction, reports, stereotypes or assumptions -- and allow the Holy Spirit to have His work in leading and guiding believers. I understand that there are some who have said that "God led them to a truth" that believers should not vote. At the same time, I have heard others claim to be "told" the opposite. The same is true of many other issues as well.

On a personal level, I prefer to avoid allowing someone else's claims distract me from prayerfully and purely seeking the Lord on every such matter for myself and that His Spirit would guide me in all truth. I can listen...and pray about what they say. However, that is sufficient in how I would allow someone to influence me. I pray that only the words that they speak that reflect the heart of God (rather than the flesh or intellect) on such matters should influence me.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/7/10 21:25Profile









 Re:

I had resolved to take a long break from posting, which I will continue to do. However I felt compelled to thank ccchhhrrriiisss for responding the way he has.

thanks again Chris.

 2012/7/10 22:22









 Re:

Chris writes........

"When a believer turns to ACCUSATIONS of a group and subtly inserts the assumption that all or most believers who vote, participate in service, etc... think and behave a certain way, then I believe that they have given in to an age old "who THEY know" -- or how they think others feel/think/pray/stand/believe fallacy."

And then in the very next sentence writes.........

"Now, I am not attacking Brother Andrew or anyone who shares his opinion. "

Rather than accusing him of being an accuser, or subtly inserting assumption you should just go to his site and have a conversation with Andrew himself. I would urge you to do that Chris, make your points to Andrew, say what you said here, and I know that he will reply to you. He has a great site and has an enormous e-mail list of Christians from all over the world. He gets information coming in from everywhere and he travels frequently all over the world. He may just be more qualified to speak on this subject than you may think. That is my advice to you Chris, I know that you have given this very advice many times, it may be time to take your own advice.......bro Frank

 2012/7/10 23:13
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: WHY the "TEA PARTY" is UNCHRISTIAN by Andrew Strom

For some reason the thoughts of the Wehrmacht belt buckle and it's slogan, came to mind, Gott mit uns

 2012/7/10 23:25Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Interesting post by Andrew. I think much of the spirit of what he said is right, though I do disagree with him as to some of the specific things he said. Some of his generalizations are unfortunate. But, be that as it may, his essay reminds me of an old Art Katz saying: "You are far too American."

And being "far too American" is definitely where many Christians are in this country, no matter what political affiliations they have. We don't realize that the "politics" of the kingdom of heaven are far too radical for both the right or the left. And many Christians on all sides do not realize they are being co-opted by the powers that be to simply play the same old tired game that has been played for centuries now. Being uncritical and undiscerning, they lose the ability to truly speak and say something significant.

For example, in the recent healthcare debate in America, I did not come across one Christian who espoused Jesus Christ as our true healer, and that men ought to look to Him continually for healing. Perhaps there was a Pentecostal or two out there who reminded people that provision for healing was provided in the atonement--- by His stripes we are healed. But I didn't run into any such Pentecostals personally.

Nor did I hear anybody point out the fact that insurance companies aren't actually the ones that are refusing to provide medical services. Rather, it is hospitals who are refusing to provide medical services. Insurance companies just an attempt to make the cost of health care more affordable. But at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of hospitals to show mercy to others, including the poor. They should be the one's who make healthcare more affordable. We shouldn't even need insurance companies. Yet for all the rhetoric I heard, nobody on either side of the isle so much as pointed a finger at hospitals for being a major part of the problem. For the issue wasn't really about helping the poor receive affordable healthcare. It was really just a power grab plain and simple.

Were any of these things argued by anybody of significant voice in the church? A people who are supposed to be discerning above all others, and able to see into the heart of these issues? Not that I'm aware of. And why? Because we have been co-opted by the powers that be to play their game. They could not make any such an arguments at the end of the day because, as Art said, "they are far too American."

Again, a generally good article that strikes a good chord with me. But I feel the note is perhaps a little too flat. And I feel some of the points Andrew made were a little too Australian.

**edited/revised**


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/7/10 23:32Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

The author of the original post is correct in stating that the Tea Party is not a Christian movement, however, it is not for the reasons he suggests.

(1) The misuse of John 18 is tragic. Read the verse in context and you will see why Jesus says His kingdom is not if this earth. In verse 35, Pilate tells Jesus, “Your own nation and the chief priests delivered you to me…” Thus Jesus is distancing Himself from the earthly nation of Israel which will be destroyed in 70 AD (Matthew 24) Another reason is given in the next verse, “Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.’" His kingdom is not of the earth because it does not wage war as the earth does; in this context using the sword to free Jesus. The phrase “of this world” is referring to its method of operation, not its location. Remember, John the Baptist stated, “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Besides, if Jesus’ servants had physically fought to keep Him from being handed over to the Jews, how would things have gone for those of us who look to Jesus for salvation? If “righteousness exalts a nation” (Proverbs 14:34) then there is nothing in this passage to suggests that Christians cannot be nationally-minded.

(2) The problem with the wars that the American government has perpetrated in the last few years is that by our Constitution, they are illegal. War, in and of itself, is not sinful. Don’t forget, “The Lord is a warrior; the LORD is His name.” (Exodus 15:3) The wars are being used by both major parties to bankrupt and destroy this nation. The truth of the matter is that these wars are another manifestation of God’s judgment against the church in America. Sadly, many professing Christians support these unnecessary military efforts, but until the Church gets right with God, it does not matter one iota if professing Christians support or oppose the warfare.

(3) and (4) can be considered together. The exact opposite of what the author is suggesting is actually the problem: professing Christians in America are just as socialistic as their secular counterparts. There is no biblical imperative that the government should ever take care of the poor and needy. Jesus calls His disciples to this type of ministry and we are to rely on His provision to carry it out. Governments do not have money of their own and they cannot make money (by creating a product) thus they must take money from those who have it. Our Constitution allows taxation to finance a limited amount of activity but when the government exceeds those limits they are stealing money. This means the author is unknowingly suggesting that it is a Christian concept to steal from one man to help another? God loves a cheerful giver and He does not want us to give at gunpoint. Yes, there are people who genuinely face tough times and that is a perfect opportunity for the Church to minister God’s love, but leave the government out of that equation.

(5) Quote: “The USAs problems are almost entirely SPIRITUAL.” Amen to that! Nothing will end the political malady that exists in American until the Church gets right with God. This however, does not preclude the need to legally work within the political system. “The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.” (Proverbs 21:1) The same God who gave His Law to His people, still moves the hearts of kings. Is there anything that prohibits Christians from engaging in law and politics?

So while the author speaks truth when he states that many professing Christians are being misled by the Tea Party, the way he gets from point A to point B is a mystery to me.

Grace and peace,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew

 2012/7/11 0:48Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank,

I am not attacking Brother Andrew. As I said in my post, I agree with him on much of what he writes in other articles and even the "base" of this article in regard to spiritual things and admonitions to focus on Christ as the answer to spiritual problems in this country.

Moreover, the initial quote was not directed entirely at Brother Andrew. But, yes, it is true that he made a set of accusations and claims in the article that lumped together the people of the Tea Party or Tea Party "evangelicals" as being guilty of the things that he listed.

In his post, Brother Andrew accused the people involved in the Tea Party movement as being "an Unhealthy Mixing of Christianity with Nationalism," "Being Basically the Biggest Supporters of WAR in America," "Siding with the Rich and Against the Poor," "Denying it to the Needy," "Pushing the Idea that "Political" Answers can Solve America's Problems," as well as the subtle accusations that were interlaced within the body of his post, such as "Utterly distorting what real Christianity is all about," How un-Christlike," "they seem utterly against the cause of the poor and totally for the Rich and the 'Big Money' interests," "Fighting on the side of Big Business against the "little people" who can't afford to pay," "They come across as ugly, mean-spirited and anger-filled."

Those are the accusations that were levied against the group. While I have never attended a Tea Party rally, I know many people who have. Many of them are believers in Christ. They are very unlike the image portrayed in this article. They care for the people in the country they live, but their hearts are on the Lord. In fact, there are a few people who are members in SermonIndex who have either attended some of those sort of rallies or embraced some of the views of the Tea Party (e.g. taxation with representation and standing against immoral abortion and homosexual policies being pushed upon the people of this country, etc...). Again, they do not resemble the picture that is painted by some in the media, the image painted by members of the Far Left or the claims by some in the Church.

As for bringing this up with Andrew:

I have no problem with speaking with Brother Andrew on this issue. However, I don't visit his website and I am not on his mailing list. I do count him as a brother regardless of any disagreement on an issue like this. Regardless of the size or scope of his ministry, his study/education of this subject or the people that he comes into contact with, I don't think any more or less of his position because of it either. And, of course, I never questioned whether he was "qualified" to speak on this subject in the first place. My email is included here and he can also feel free to contact me if he feels led.

By the way, I am sure that there are individuals who may be guilty of the things that Brother Andrew said. However, I feel that it is inappropriate to extend such a broad blanket over either the Tea Party or members of the Body of Christ who might embrace some of those views on matters in this society. Most of the Christians that I know are Christians first and foremost. If they had to choose between Jesus or America, there would be no doubt who comes first for them. Yes, you can say that I may only know 10-12 who are like that (it is actually many more), but that would still break the stereotype. And, of course, the question has to be asked about those who make the accusations first. How many Tea Party folks (especially Christians) do they personally know who fit such a mold? Why must the burden of proof among believers always lay with the accused?

It reminds me of a divisive young man who used to attend a Christian organization that I enjoyed fellowship with during college. This young man wanted to "lead" the organization. However, he was involved in all types of gossip, backbiting and slander (of the "spiritual" kind) which often lessened the impact of any word he tried to share with the group. Because of his conduct, our student organization pastor and leaders didn't allow him to have his way. The Lord was working in mighty ways during college in and through the group. We had wonderful Bible studies, prayer meetings, evangelism ministry and weekly meetings. At that point, the group meetings were standing room only and many students were coming to Christ.

Because this was a registered student organization on campus, we were required to have elections for leadership. This young man ran for every office during every election and never won. Due to the gossip and backbiting that had become an issue, the pastor didn't want to allow any room for division. Still, we tried to help this zealous young man in other ways, including maturity and even ministry.

However, during one meeting, he tried to create a coup d'etat. He brought some of his friends to the meeting unannounced, stood up and interupted a leaders' meeting. He gave a word about how "God told" him the word "Ichabod" and how "God told" him that "the Lord has left the group" and how the organization was filled with "the Jezebel spirit*" (*coincidentally, the same thing that a local pastor who wanted more influence in our group had preached and spoke with this young man about). He repeated that "the Lord is not in this group" several times during his diatribe.

When he was finished, someone asked him what the Jezebel spirit consists of. He had no answer. I finally asked him about his claim that "God told" him that the Lord had departed the group and it was filled with the Jezebel spirit. I asked him if he was still a part of the group. He had to admit that he was. So, I asked him, "Did the Lord leave you? Did the Lord depart out of your life? Since you are a part of the group, are you having problems with the Jezebel spirit?"

This young man quickly changed the subject into all of the specific things that "God told" him was wrong with the organization. Namely, he was upset that we were so involved with ministry on campus that we weren't out doing more activities elsewhere. He was also upset with some of the requirements to be a "leader" in the group (which was set up by the school and not the group). And, most importantly, he didn't like the fact that the group held a car wash as a missions fundraiser...saying that we should have met to wash cars for free as a ministry. In other words, he was "told" that God had departed the group over superficial differences of opinion that he had with the pastors and leaders of the organization.

Why am I saying this? I know individuals who are in the Tea Party. They aren't like the description of the first post. They seek the Lord, follow hard after the ways of the Lord, and reflect the heart of God to others. They may disagree with certain elected officials on particular issues of policy...or in specifics about how that policy should be dispersed. However, they are Christ-centered first and their involvement -- like many believers -- is motivated first out of love for Christ, then love for their families and then love for their neighbors, the unborn, etc...

I hope that this makes a little more sense.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/7/11 1:28Profile









 Re:

Chris writes........

" I am not attacking Brother Andrew." That is exaclty what you are doing, let me remind you of what you wrote.........

""When a believer turns to ACCUSATIONS of a group and subtly inserts the assumption that all or most believers who vote, participate in service, etc... think and behave a certain way, then I believe that they have given in to an age old "who THEY know" -- or how they think others feel/think/pray/stand/believe fallacy."

This is an attack and you even highlighted the word " accusations." And then you do it all over again in your last post. Chris, far be it for me to point out the obvious, but just because you put a sentence like " I am not attacking brother Andrew," into your attack does not mean your not attacking him. And once again you use some vague anecdotal argument that you " know,' some people that are in the tea party and they are not like that. This is an incredibly flimsy argument at best. And your reply to my suggestion that rather than attacking this brother you say it to him directly( an argument that I have seen you use hundreds of times over the years) is that you " do not go to his website." Well, again Chris, at the risk of stating the obvious, go to his site and state your objections to him personally. Tell him you know five people who are not like that, or however many people it is, therefore he cannot be correct. It would be interesting to see his reply to your charges..........bro Frank

 2012/7/11 8:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: WHY the "TEA PARTY" is UNCHRISTIAN by Andrew Strom

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________


(4) -HEALTH CARE - Denying it to the Needy-. (-Related to # 3).
I am not talking about "ObamaCare" here. I have no comment on
ObamaCare one way or the other. What I am talking about is a
general attitude amongst Christians. I cannot tell you the number
of emails that I've gotten from believers who want to deny poor
uninsured Americans any decent Health Care. (I guess because
they are lower-class and can't afford it).

Do you know that millions and millions of Americans are being
denied basic Health coverage that is totally taken for granted in
other countries? And that it is the CHRISTIANS who want to deny
it to them? And do you know that there are multitudes of Americans
who wind up bankrupt or losing their home simply because they
can't pay their medical bills? Does that sound like a "Christian"
ideal to you? Does it sound like something that believers should
be fighting for? -Fighting on the side of Big Business against the
"little people" who can't afford to pay? What kind of "Christianity" is that?
____________________________________________________________

I find this troubling.

In our area, which is among the poorest in the nation as for the percentage of its population being on welfare, the medical profession tells us they cannot refuse service to anyone. They are required by law to render services to people regardless of their ability to pay. Of course, they will try to collect but many refuse to pay.

Thus many people abuse the system.

But this is policy, politics, if you will.

What about teaching people they should instead turn to the LORD for their health well-being, instead? Would this not be more scriptural then lamenting the perceived disparity in medical services' availability dependent upon pay?

Personally, I am very much alarmed with the gov intrusion into the medical profession. It would be far better to allow the principle of supply and demand to govern it. What I really fear in this Obamacare is that when a body gets infirm, is no longer productive the gov will mandate euthanasia because it would be too costly to care for this person. Many people complain about the cost and for justifiable reasons but this possibility of euthanasia scares me.

NOW if the gov insists on fixing the way medicine is practiced the shortest route would be to target the lawyers that are abusing, destroying it with lawsuits. Put a cap on how much a victim can get and limit the amount a lawyer will earn from such a lawsuit. Simple. EDIT: Doing so will lower health costs, rendering health care's availability to those who think they cannot afford it. Malpractice insurance is horrendous.

Yet...are we to not get entangled with world? How can a body survive even alone when it wants to tell you you cannot allow your children to operate farm equipment or work on the farm? (This proposal has been withdrawn due to the outcry of people.) And it tells you that you cannot sell raw milk! Sometimes I think the gov is issuing stupid rules in an effort to strangle the ability of people to care for themselves, which is something deeply ingrained in the American people. When they have disallowed, destroyed people's ability to look after themselves they become dependent upon the gov which will make it easier for it to manipulate its citizens.

As I look at Scripture nowhere do I find that any gov limiting its citizens to self-sufficiency as what we are seeing today. Hmmmm....maybe this portends something far more sinister then mere gov intrusion into the lives of its people?

My thoughts.

PS: And no, I have never attended a "tea party". I know little more beyond that it exists.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/7/11 11:51Profile





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