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Staff-- I agree with you- but for different reasons.
Comparing the USA to N Korea or China or Muslim countries is not fair. The USA is a different country with freedoms. I just cant see the govt beating down our doors to arrest Christians any time soon. We are a free country, still with certain liberties. Other countries mentioned are the antithesis of this.
I am not saying that persecution might not come-- it may. But soon is indeed a very vague term.
Art Katz taught that JEWS were going to be persecuted stronger than they were in the 30s and 40s, and that the Western Church's main task will be to take in and protect fleeing Jews. He felt that Christians will be persecuted for protecting Jews. This hardly seems possible at this point in time, but i could envisage a scenario where it might happen.
| 2012/6/30 19:26||Profile|
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You have made some very good points, Staff. Persecution usually comes when those who name the Name of Jesus are living Godly lives.
By and large, that is not happening in America, hence no persecution. And we can clearly see that not only from the New Testament but the Old Testament, too.
So, first things first. We must live Godly lives. What is there to persecute without Godly living? The False, Worldly Church gets along great with the world so they will not receive any persecution from the world. And if True Christians are comfortable in the False, Worldly Church then they will not receive any persecution from the religious system.
Jesus was not friendly with the religious system.
If you look around the world to those who are receiving persecution, it is those that are standing uncompromisingly strong for the Gospel and the Lord Jesus.
When we are friends with the world, Satan has accomplished his goal and there is no need for persecution. He only persecutes those who are living godly because he works through people.
| 2012/6/30 19:31||Profile|
| 2012/6/30 19:32|
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Hi I am watching Carter Conlon on tv now which is great because I am on the other side of the Atlantic.I see that his sermon is on the website as well.Here is the link
"I know what your calling is"
Perhaps this timely sermon is saying what I want to say.
Also thank God not every Tv Pastor from the US comes across as a religious nut.
He is talking about Mercy and Judgement.
He is saying that it is time for God to Judge but he doesn't want too.God still wants extend a season of Mercy.
| 2012/6/30 19:59||Profile|
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If there are no David's (A Lukewarm Church) then the spirit of Saul will not rise up and persecute. As long as Saul is the center of attention, the one who has killed his thousands (successful in building his kingdom and getting men to follow him), and is not threatened by a David (killed his ten thousands - people leaving Saul to follow him/Christ), then there is nothing to persecute.
That is what Laodicea is. Lukewarm, Saul based church rather than Christocentric church.
We must have godly, holy living and the topic might well be, "When Will the Church Turn Away from the World and Live Godly?" Then we will know when persecution comes.
This is the chapter where Israel rejected God for Saul.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom:
1Sa 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.
And here is what Samuel said the manner of the kingdom would be:
1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth (modern day tithe of the religious system being prophesied) of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth (tithe)of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
As you can see, SAUL is making a well-oiled religious system that is not based on faith and God's provision. It is a "DOING" system as he needs plenty of workers to build HIS Kingdom. Contrast that to God's kingdom which is a BEING Kingdom. His Being/Spirit in us, bearing fruit as we walk in love and obedience. Saul's kingdom takes advantage of his fellow brethren. God does not.
I am saying this: AS LONG AS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE COMFORTABLE WITH SAUL THERE WILL BE NO PERSECUTION.
David did not stay. He fled with a REMNANT of men and lived in the wilderness.
And what is up with this?
1Sa 10:26 And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.
I used to think that these men were going to help SAUL see the light, but I have no idea what happened to these men. I know it is not possible to change the religious system but many are hopeful. These men should have fled with David. I never hear of another thing about these men "whose hearts God had touched."
What do you think God is trying to tell to us? Stay with Saul or flee like David did?
| 2012/6/30 20:17||Profile|
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"If you look around the world to those who are receiving persecution, it is those that are standing uncompromisingly strong for the Gospel and the Lord Jesus."
This is true.. thank goodness they are standing firm. But the reason they are persecuted for "standing firm" is because it is ILLEGAL to be a Christian in those countries.
I think it is unfair to guess how the USA/Canadian church would react if it were suddenly declated ILLEGAL to be a Christian. I think there is a good possibility that the USA/Canadian church just might rise to the occasion, with the grace of God.
It seems there are 2 different types of persecution: 1) Official persecution-- meaning the State says if they catch you practicing Christianity you are going to jail, or worse; or 2) The true church is so on fire that the false church cannot tolerate same because the true church shines light on the corruption of the false church.
It is obviously not the "western" church's fault that Chritianity is not illegal, yet. We can't expect persecution from that source. There may be blame placed on the true church for not experiencing the 2nd type of persecution, but that is a little more complicated to analyze because who knows-- if the true church caught on serious fire, it might spread to the sleeping church.
Wouldn't that be awesome?
| 2012/6/30 21:05||Profile|
| Re: The great persecution that is soon to come upon the Church|
If a first century believer reading the Revelation that John wrote in his day were to read the words, "Shortly come to pass", he would have thought that the words that were being spoken in that book were going to happen shortly.
If he got to the end of the book where it reads, "Behold, I come quickly", he would have thought that Jesus was coming quickly.
When we use those same words today in our writings, has anyone ever wondered about the first century believer who read that? Was God out to confuse His children?
When Jesus said that He was going to visit Lazarus in a few days, was that few days thousands of years, or did He really mean just a few days? Strange how we spiritualize some parts of what Jesus said and choose not for others.
How dare us use the same words of the Apostle John in describing our day and say, "Shortly come to pass". How dare we! Wasn't the first century believer important?
When the Angel told Daniel to seal the book, the Angel said that the fulfillment of what he saw was going to be long, from the time he saw it to whatever time it was fulfilled.
But John wasn't told it was going to be long, he was told it was going to take place shortly, and quickly. Since it wasn't going to be long, who are we to change the conditions of this document and how it shall play out? We accept Daniels "Long" but we can't accept Johns "Shortly".
Our minds are so carnal. We are using a broken mind to create images of how we believe things will occur and those images and pictures have been passed down from generation to generation and God can't plant anything any of His own ideas or pictures because we've been set to believe what we have been told is true.
For example, the coming of the Lord is so set in our minds of how it will be that we can't think any other way. Anyone touching that thinking is ostracized.
We say that we should be taught of the Holy Ghost. What if I told you that I was taught of the Holy Ghost in that He has caused me to see and believe? I was a willing vessel waiting for fresh ideas and pictures. He came and stripped me of everything that I had come to believe was true and replaced them with a different picture, one that is totally contrary of what everyone else thinks. Yet what He showed me is not a private interpretation, it's there in black and white. That is the scary part. It's so plain yet it's stumbled over and over again. I believe it's because our minds are already convinced of what we think will happen that God can't plant anything more in there. The other has to go before God can insert His thoughts on the matter. Even mentioning what I am mentioning daggers are already pointed at me as false. That is why I don't say much on this subject here because it's not readily received.
As far as Tribulation and Persecution is concerned your spot on, that really goes without saying. They that live Godly in this life will suffer persecution. Which means that to answer your question of which will come first, persecution or a move of God, the move of God will come first then the persecution. We know this because of what the bible says concerning the revivals that took place. There was such mass conversion that it required a response from the religious leaders, persecution was their answer and not just any persecution but a great one which caused the Church to flee (which was Gods will, God doesn't want us to congregate in one spot, He wants us to branch out). When the Church fled they began to proselyte wherever they ended up at. I like that don't you?
Quote: A double Amen.
Now brothers and sisters, are we that people? Can you say that the desire of your life is to be more like Jesus and to follow Him? Do you love Him above all else? Are you worthy to be His disciple? Now is the time to have your Gethsemane. The battle of Calvary was won in the garden of Gethsemane. Will you turn back when these things begin to unfold? And so the question bears repeating Who amongst us can embrace a God that has called us to martyrdom? Remember, when it became clear that the Lord Jesus was to become a suffering servant, one who was to be despised by the multitude, rejected, humiliated, tortured and then crucified, how many stood with Him? If you have to face the same things in the coming persecution, will you still stand with Him? Jesus urged His disciples to pray because He knew what was about to come to pass, He Himself prayed and overcame the flesh in the garden before the time came and He found victory in the Garden. He had made up His mind that He would bow to the will of His Father. Can you do the same now saint? Can you make up your mind now that come what may, if events of the end time are not how you supposed them to be or have been taught that they will be, that never-the-less you will bow to the will of your Father and embrace the God that calls you to martyrdom?
| 2012/6/30 21:50|
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HI Pilgrim, to your first point, I think it may be moot because there are David's or, to put it another way, there is and always has and always will be a remnant, no matter the state of Christendom. Second point may be moot as well as David was not on the scene at that time. The children of Israel were given what their hearts desired and even then they quarrelled amongst themselves........ bro Frank
| 2012/6/30 21:54|
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If you look at it spiritually, the Lord is always coming to us, shortly, because one way or another we are coming to Him. He came to me 35 years ago and many times since then.
He does come shortly...
He comes often without coming visibly. Do a search on the Bible on the phrase "the Lord cometh".
| 2012/6/30 22:06||Profile|
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Yes, Appolus, there has always been a remnant in every generation. They are exactly that, a remnant, not a majority.
The coming persecution will accelerate the leaving of Babylon by the Remnant.
| 2012/6/30 22:09||Profile|